1HD-T - Swarf / Metal Debris in Sump!

[Justin_Elliott]

Found this today when I took the sump off to do the BEB's:


I always check my sump plug and oil for foreign objects when doing a change and I didn't find anything this time either, so ... anyway took the sump off and this was all hiding in the dregs...

There appears to be a mixture of steel shavings (like the long curly piece on the right of the above pic) and small 'nuggets' of cast steel/iron(definitely magnetic) (largest 4 x 4 x 13mm). (Its difficult to make out any features on these small pieces). My first guess is either part of the head (valve seats) or even internals from Turbo? But all guesses really.

All the lower half of the engine appears to be in good order...

So considering 'all was well' (or apparently well) before I did BEB's what should I do next? I was thinking of looking at the upper half of the head (as its not intrusive) - but anyone heard of this type of thing occurring on 1HD-T's before?

 

[Towpack]

What was the condition of the shells you removed? The debris I've seen from de-laminating shells has been in the form of metal flakes, certainly not nuggets of steel or cast material. Can't see it being a turbo either personally. A turbo would destroy itself long before losing this amount of material IMO. In fact, looking at the amount of material, surely any component suffering damage to that degree would produce symptoms of some kind. Could it be debris left from some work done previously on the engine maybe?

 

[Chris]

Bl**dy Hell JE. That's something no one should ever have to see. Deff not normal that's for sure. If it were from the turbo, I think you'd have been sent a message already. It really does look like machined swarf for sure.

 

[Justin_Elliott]

Towpack - added my BEB's 'standard nightmare pics' here (see post 138) >> http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forums/showthread.php/35020-Big-end-shell-replacement/page7...

Really not related - these nuggets wouldn't make it past the oil strainer - let alone the filter...

Anyway, going to pull the top cover off and see if I can see anything wrong from the valves side.

 

[Justin_Elliott]

Just to add - I really don't know how long this has been there - but the truck was running well before! I'll try and get some detail pics as on closer inspection; I've found a piece with a 'machined' feature... definitely looking more like 'valves' than anything else.

 

[Towpack]

Given it's an interferance engine, possible past belt failiure maybe.

 

[clivehorridge]

 

[Justin_Elliott]

Took the valve cover off - no sign of anything amiss...

So what next? Don't really want to pull the cylinder head to find its all ok...

Also - is it normal to have a 'small' amount of oil in the intake (from turbo) or could this be a sign of something?

 

[clivehorridge]

IMHO, irrespective of what may have happened in the past, assuming the problem was fixed and the engine is running fine now, debris in the sump (however mysterious it may be) would not offer a big threat to the engine.

The heavy stuff would stay in the bottom, medium moving stuff would be caught by the strainer and the finer stuff would end up in the filter.

It would be reassuring to find out where such big stuff has come from though. A lot of it looks like broken casting to me. Maybe a broken camshaft or similar, time ago...

 

[Towpack]

Took the valve cover off - no sign of anything amiss...

So what next? Don't really want to pull the cylinder head to find its all ok...

Also - is it normal to have a 'small' amount of oil in the intake (from turbo) or could this be a sign of something?

Every TD engine I've ever come across has had some oil in the intake tract. The 1H series engines can throw some oil out through the breather and into the airflow upstream of the turbo. A seperator helps here. Some will also escape past the turbo seals as they age and wear. Shouldn't worry about it.

 

[Justin_Elliott]

Thanks for your comments guys...

I think I'll take the opportunity to check the valve clearances (on the list anyway) and if the numbers are massively out on a particular cylinder then it may imply that something has moved/failed....

 

[frank rabbets]

I think that swarf has been poured into the engine from a can with swarf in the bottom. I've seen all sorts of engine failures and never seen anything like that before. Piston and valve debris cannot get in to the sump. Bits from the rocker and valve lever assemblies can get washed down in to the sump but the engine would be running badly , if at all. Some bits look like lathe turnings. A better pic would be interesting. The pickup strainer will may need cleaning.

Frank

 

[karl webster]

Was it running ok before dropping the sump justin?

my guess would be that in the past something has gone amiss, engine been fixed and all that rubbish wasn't cleaned out of the sump.Crazy thing to do if I'm right though!

 

[karl webster]

Just had a close look at the photo. Check the marring surface on your block Justin to see if its been parted before. I personally thing the long biggest bit of metal is either an old shot remainder of a bearing. The small magnetic bits prob a con rod ????
Could have had bearing failed in the past and new crank etc then rebuilt but the rubbish not cleaned in the sump.
Or someone has just fitted a different sump for some reason and the crap was already in there and they forgot to clean it out maybe.

 

[Chas]

Found this today when I took the sump off to do the BEB's:


I always check my sump plug and oil for foreign objects when doing a change and I didn't find anything this time either, so ... anyway took the sump off and this was all hiding in the dregs...

One thing puzzles me, how come there were magnetic particles in the sump but you said the sump plug was clean? shouldn't there have been something on the plug?

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

Can you see if the crank thrust washers are both ok? Just wondering if that big curved bit is remains of a thrust washer and the rest is the aftermath of it failing. If all looks ok down below then I'd guess the same as the others as it runs ok - it's the remains of a previous failure or bad fill up and the bits were in the oilways and not washed out when the repair work was done. Wasn't this your fathers 80 before you got it so the known history goes back a long way or am I thinking of someone else?

 

[Chris]

Frank, I think that is a most plausible suggestion. That does look like chips off a lathe. Old oil can, crap in the bottom, poured into the rocker cover, straight down into the sump.

 

[karl webster]

Surely if that crap had gone in from the top then the cam and buckets will have had a hard time. It all wouldn't just go straight into the sumo with no damage to the top end.

 

[jonnyboy54321]

Personally I think JW may be onto something regarding the thrust bearings by the looks of the long bit.
Unless it has had a snapped cam or whatever, bits have migrated south and the sump wasn't dropped?
I know very little about these engines - what about a failed oil pump?

 

[Justin_Elliott]

Thanks for the responses guys, I'll try to answer the comments in one...

Truck ran fine before I started the strip down not had any concerning noises from the engine bay that I can recall.

Could have been poured in (but not by me - I tend to work like a surgeon!) - but definitely plausible as the truck has been on some adventures.. & yes Jon this was my Dad's 80 before me (well remembered). He's never had any major work done to the engine (failures etc..) but he also thought the BEB's had been done before (which they may have)...

Unless I can find some evidence for the debris I'll be telling myself this over and over before starting it up!.

Strainer has been flushed through and other than one or two small pieces of FIPG was clean, these bits were all in the base of the sump and didn't flow out with the oil (I place a strong magnet in a freezer bag in the flow of the oil when draining - nothing stuck to it). So I was very surprised to find this in the dregs.

Surface of block looks fairly clean - but still could have been apart previously.

Thrust washers look intact and no sign of damage to the crank or indeed any surface on the underside (I've given it several detailed inspections.)

I can't see any indication of the shite being run past the cam... no dings, marks, scoring or anything else.

One other idea - could these be part of the oil/PS pump drive gears? I don't have any resistance or noise when turning the crank (by hand)...

Thanks for the help - I'll see if I can borrow a boroscope to have a look at the oil/PS gears, but as I've squeezed the truck into the garage (0.5" clearance on all sides) its a PITA to work on/around - so this may be over optimistic.