eu in or out poll

[Chas]

Didn't Abraham Lincoln have such a dream America must be heaven on earth by now then

Nice one Shayne and HP you couldn't be a palm wringing communist who eats tofu .... they'd never pay £60 for a shirt.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

Didn't Abraham Lincoln have such a dream America must be heaven on earth by now then

Lol. Thats a real and valid point.

I'd rather we align ourselves to our European Neighbours, they like us have centuries of history and culture on which their foundations stand
The alternative is we align ourselves to America or rather corporate America.
You can chew on your GM corn fed, antibotic filled, growth hormone inflated burger till it makes you fat and clogs your arteries.
Then you can pay through the nose for the bypass bill that your health insurance won't cover. But don't worry someones making a profit somewhere so it's ok.
The closer we have moved to the American model the more our quality of life has decreased. I'd sing 'Ode to joy" before i sing the star spangled banner anytime.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

Hahaha

I weave my own shirts using hemp and the armpit hair of my ex-lesbian vegetarian life partner

 

[Paddler Ed]

That is the challenge - the alignments are getting more and more corporate; who gains the most from the alignment/investment?

This is why China can be seen to be moving into some of the African states (which is similar to the Scots - Anyone But England (and add in this case, America)), and how the money is flowing from China into a lot of other areas, principally food security and resource security to fuel growth - much the same as the British did in the 1800's (which is why up until the mid 20th Century Australia's exports went to the UK so much), whilst the Americans were more concerned about the threat of Communism (hence the formation of NATO and SEATO) which led to them meddling in a lot of countries and causing trouble...

Now, what is the solution? Trade agreements often allow a period of arbitrage to go on, until there is no longer a cheap option and then there is the quest for the next place. We can see that happening as production shifts around the world - products formerly made in the UK were then made in the Indian Sub continent, SE Asia and various other islands and places (for example, check where your boxers were made...) However, what is interesting in America is the shift back to the USA for some products as the quality was more reliable and the production and transport costs were such that it was cheaper to produce it domestically.... but as the economy has slowed, the cost of trans-Pacific and trans Atlantic shipping has dropped, so this is not so much of an option.

So, where do all my ramblings lead me to? We aren't going to get back to a large primary industry nation - we've exhausted our national resources and pissed the money from them up the wall (certainly compared to Norway's Sovereign Wealth fund that was largely supported by the oil from the North Sea), and the shift away from high carbon power sources (coal fired power stations for example) to lower emission options reduce our ability to operate as a primary producer.

Secondary production - manufacturing - has been crowded out by the services (tertiary) industries growth; combine that with mechanisation at a scale never seen since really the industrial revolution, and we don't really stand a chance for exporting a physical product as we aren't producing many of them as a share of the total economic activity.

One of the final problems is that the world constantly needs low cost production venues; in the past we brought people in from the Colonies to do that for us (see the Indian and Pakistani communities, and the Caribbean communities, in some cases helped along by a bit of war) and without those low cost workforces domestic production stops and the balance of trade goes the wrong way, with more imports than exports.... Which all then links to the problems with the pension - or lack of pension, as the ponzi scheme that is the state pension is collapsing without more people working and paying NI contributions which go into the pot... and then is the role of migration in keeping the population levels up - without that you end up with another Japan.

So, stay in or out?

The more I think about it, and whilst there are aspects of the EU I dislike, the more I think that the only solution is to accept that the EU is the only solution for the immediate future - however, there will have to be changes to it. First one for me is that if they want the Euro, then they must accept that members that are using that as their currency must accept a complete fiscal union where the taxes and benefits are the same throughout the Eurozone - that will go some way to stopping the movement of people who are looking for the best deal as such, and will ensure that the struggling nations are on a closer economic footing to the strong nations, with hopefully a reducing deficit and a more stable economy. Without that, the ECB's hands are tied in managing the economic performance of the disparate countries - they can remain independent in the same that the Bank of England are, or the Reserve Bank of Australia, therefore looking after monetary policy, but there must be a fiscal policy union (the bit that looks after taxes and benefits).

Right, it's 1045 at night now, so I'm off...

Ed

 

[fast but dim]

Nope i have no idea what benefits the EU can offer but i'm happy to do without them

That is the least logical statement on EU membership I have heard!

I don't know the benefits to being a member of the EU, but I'd like to find out before I vote out.

 

[Chas]

Well one of the 'benefits' of being a member would be to have our population swelled by a lot of Turkish economic refugees.

 

[fast but dim]

Well one of the 'benefits' of being a member would be to have our population swelled by a lot of Turkish economic refugees.

They wouldn't be refugees, they'd be economic migrants. There's a massive difference: think jew leaving nazi germany in 1938 vs scaffolder going for a job in Saudi.

http://www.ssi.org.au/faqs/refugee-faqs/148-what-is-the-difference-between-a-refugee-and-a-migrant

 

[Rob Cowell]

Well one of the 'benefits' of being a member would be to have our population swelled by a lot of Turkish economic refugees.

More lamb buyers. Sounds good. Bit concerend about all the tofu eaters round here.

 

[Chas]

They wouldn't be refugees, they'd be economic migrants. There's a massive difference: think jew leaving nazi germany in 1938 vs scaffolder going for a job in Saudi.

Yes, I should have put migrant.

 

[Chas]

More lamb buyers. Sounds good. Bit concerend about all the tofu eaters round here.

Love Lamb hate Tofu.

 

[Shayne]

That is the least logical statement on EU membership I have heard!

I don't know the benefits to being a member of the EU, but I'd like to find out before I vote out.

Good luck .

 

[Iwan]

More lamb buyers. Sounds good. Bit concerend about all the tofu eaters round here.

I dont eat tofu often... but can't understand why you are concerned about what food people eat????

Surely this is an eu in or out discussion?????

Comments like this makes me think of your mentality

 

[Rob Cowell]

I dont eat tofu often... but can't understand why you are concerned about what food people eat????

Surely this is an eu in or out discussion?????

Comments like this makes me think of your mentality

Thanks for your concern Iwan. I'm a livestock farmer, so what people eat, and how easy they are to sell to matters to me. What is your take on the referendum?

 

[Brian S]

This is the amount of influence the UK has in Europe, being in the eu is only a one way affair, they only want us for our money

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/46...at-show-the-UK-has-little-influence-on-the-EU

It is only the eu commissioners that make the laws, the MEPs are just a talking shop and have no sway over the Unelected and unsackable commissioners
I wasn't asked for my vote for the likes of Junker, Shulz, et al, they do not represent me or my country

I want only people I vote for and who are accountable to me, to represent me in Westminster, OUR Parliament, representing, and supposedly with the UKs best interest at heart.

Now I'm still waiting for the Remain group to come up with a list of positives to make me think, " sugar, if we leave we won't have/ miss out on all this"
All I've seen from them is scaremongering.
If we stay in (god forbid) we might as well disband Westminster and the MPs, they just rubber stamp what laws the eu make now, within 5 years we will have the Euro, and we will be awash with migrants from everywhere, and because of this the NHS will collapse, we WILL end up a 3rd world country.

Now we have been lied to by just about every PM since this debacle began, Heath knew about what was going to happen (the eu) when we voted for the Common Market, and lied about it, they lied then and they are still lying. ( Wilson, Bliar, Brown, you name them) (by the way, if it had stayed as the Common Market, I would (if there was a vote on it) vote to stay in)

Just seen this, if you don't toe the eu line, they'll force you back into line, http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/654485/Greece-migrant-crisis-EU-troops-Austria-soldier-borders

The eu is all about control, with all the controlling being done from Brussels

 

[Brian S]

Found this after I posted last
The NHS and staying in the eu

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...nt-survive-staying-in-the-European-Union.html

 

[Rob Cowell]

I want only people I vote for and who are accountable to me, to represent me in Westminster, OUR Parliament, representing, and supposedly with the UKs best interest at heart.

Now we have been lied to by just about every PM since this debacle began, Heath knew about what was going to happen (the eu) when we voted for the Common Market, and lied about it, they lied then and they are still lying. ( Wilson, Bliar, Brown, you name them) (by the way, if it had stayed as the Common Market, I would (if there was a vote on it) vote to stay in)

Democracy in action.

 

[chapel gate]

That is a superb arguement for "in"...I'm undecided, as I haven't studied the pro's and con's of EU membership. I fully intend to get informed, and make a considered, rational decision.

My worry is that the nation's xenophobes and racists will vote us "out" without thinking of the repercussions.

this is a tactic of the left, anyone who dare disagree with there vision has there name slurred, ie there called a racist or a bigot or a xenophobe. josef stalin used the same tactics, but went a bit further with a one way ticket to Siberia or a bullet in the head..

tony blair is gone, its no longer a crime to be worried about mass immigration, nor to be proud of british history and culture, sovereignty was swatted away as irrelevant some where in this thread. it isn't.

as a side note I happen to disagree with pretty much every single point HW has made in his post, but that's fine, he is entitled to his opinion in this free country of ours.

"So why should I be concerned about that political entity above other political entities I live in? Such as the EU? Or Wales?"

because the more political entities, or layers that we have, the more monetary waste and corruption we will have. the European parliament is a big greedy lumbering monster. riddled with red tape and bureaucracy.

 

[Dave2000]

Some pretty good reading here, and like many I am undecided....er wait.....I have not been consulted because I live in Spain WTF? I should get some papers right? If my (and that of my many ex pat friends), here opinions counted why have we not been issued with the relevant documents? Because here in Spain and pretty much every other country on the continent does NOT make it easy for migrants economic or otherwise in fact, they are discouraged, they don't come here because they will get nothing unless they work and because we know it, we witness it every day, the majority would vote OUT which would piss Cameron right off! I am far from being a politician (I have a conscience), and certainly hold no qualifications in economics but would like to give my own personal view as I see it.

As it will be awhile before I reach pensionable age (quiet at the back there), I work as 'autonomo' that is I am self employed. Self employed indicates as in the UK a sole worker or small business with a low number of employee's. At first it seemed to not be a good idea, I am hit with close on 300 Euro monthly bill for social security, a 50 Euro bill for a monthly accountant and there is no IVA (VAT) threshold, I have to charge 21% on top of the first Euro I charge, not a great help for small businesses. Then you realise this supplements my not exactly cheap medication, pays for my medical needs, AND contributes to my pension so not all bad, know this and I pay it, how can they afford to do that? Spain did get a healthy hand out years ago and it went on transport infrastructure and we now have some of the best roads in Europe, but now it is being paid back (well if we believe the corrupt politician we have here?

So why did I ‘up sticks’ and move? Well it was not for their perfectly honed legal system, or the speed they process.........well anything to do with piece of paper being required, no I came here for a better quality of life, a slower pace although I did not realise it would be an almost dead stop pace, the weather is good but most of all I could see the NHS being ripped to pieces, and please please please, do not tell me immigration is not the cause (my ex was a nurse at the time), I witnessed first hand how the 'system' was being 'used'. So I came here and worked, and what do I get? Well for starters a brilliant health service. As a diabetic In the UK, if I saw a diabetic consultant ONCE in ten years it would have been a miracle, he was out always topping up his NHS salary working for a private hospital somewhere during his NHS hours, no instead I would see some trainee 4 minutes once a year who had to ask me for advice!! Don’t get me wrong the UK still has a fantastic workforce in the NHS and they work with a good heart, and with what tools they have but, they are waaaaaay down the ladder compared to the consultants and surgeons when it comes to pay and conditions, 15 years ago I remember there were charity runs to raise money for bed pans, that was kept nice and quiet right?

Here in Spain I am seen every month, EVERY month! A regular diabetic nurse trained to the hilt, checks my records by downloading my blood test machine results to a computer, analysing, discussing and advising on meds change if need be, blood pressure, weight etc. If he or she sees anything a little 'off' he refers me to the doctor THERE AND THEN! No waiting weeks for an appointment, now means RIGHT NOW, I can walk into the doctors tomorrow morning and get an appointment for the same day period, I could get same day appointments in the UK 15 years ago, if what I read now is even near the truth then you could wait a week or more for an appointment.
If a lazy SOB (sorry economic migrant) and his family turn up here with their hands out they will get nothing and soon move on to France and of course they have a similar policy to Spain, so where do they go, why bother asking?

We keep hearing how being in Europe is good for everyone and yet, I pay more here than for an identical part in the UK why? I cannot simply purchase a snorkel for example and ship it over and bolt it on. Oh no, it has to have a Spanish homogalado number, otherwise it cannot be fitted. So where is the fairness to the UK there? America has some great products but the import duties applied by the EU makes purchasing from a non EU member very expensive, as they are not ‘in the club’, I can already hear people saying what about the UK being a non member, well we would make our own products. Did you know a Spaniard cannot own a RHD vehicle unless married to a UK citizen, so why would they purchase cars from us? Pretty much any vehicle with an (IIRC) ‘N’ chassis and upwards (Mitsubishi 4x4 truck for example) can no longer be imported to Spain why? There is no evidence that they are involved in more accidents, and of course lorries are a no no. Whether you like it or not the UK is to a great degree ostracised from Europe, it is NOT the level playing field the 'innies' would have you believe, I can see it looking from the ‘outside in’, even if you living in the UK cannot.

The ‘innie’s talk about the cost to the UK if it leaves Jeeeeesus, where do they get their numbers from, surely it cannot be Osbourne, he can’t even add up his own grocery bill! When he held up that briefcase last week I wanted to reach into the TV and give him a good shaking and shout “wake up you pratt!!” He simply does not have a clue, and is so far detached from the typical person in the street, he might as well be living on the moon!

IMO, the open door immigration policy (which the EU stops Britain closing), and remembering that failed asylum seekers (of which there are still thousands) are part of that same policy, if it was not they would have been deported YEARS ago, and then the free handouts that has essentially left the United Kingdom skint and the dumping ground for those the rest of the EU do not want. Non of this is about money for the UK, who gives out more than they get back? If you owned a business that paid out £500.00 for stock and got £200.00 back you would soon be out of business and declared an idiot or even be called David Camaron The UK can fend for itself, the other EU members see the UK as the laughing stock of Europe as do the rest of the world. When Cameron came back with his ‘reforms’, I was embarrassed, not just for him but for myself and the rest of the UK, he got nothing we did not already have, he should grow a backbone and tell them to poke it, they need us more than we need them.

If it was guaranteed that NO more immigrants were going to be allowed in (remember I am an immigrant in Spain), until the health service was restored to it’s former glory (remember that?), and the 50+ million PER DAY was going to be fed back into UK’s economy, building houses, supporting businesses, and putting people back in work, the vote would IMO be to leave the EU, unless someone who REALLY knows what they are talking about can give me a clear FACTUAL reason to stay in then I would vote OUT.

Regards

Dave

 

[chapel gate]

I have no problem with close ties with Europe, I have no problem with a free trade block. I have a problem with a European super state. its all political. Britain will thrive out of Europe. I just don't agree with the European super state vision. if i was, id go the whole hog. one common language, if your gonna do it then do it properly..

 

[MarkW]

Personally I find this and thread of a similar nature on other forums more than slightly alarming, it seems from scanning these a lot of peoples decisions are made by reading rather sensationalised reports from left or right wing media rather than establishing their own informed opinion