Frankenstein 10PA 17C replaces seized 10PA 15L compressor.

[Chris]

On the subject of regassing, I have a local place that I've been very pleased with and they refill for £30 and recharge for £50. They don't repair or anything. Fill at your own risk basically. No guarantees. Well this week they couldn't fit me in. They were too busy to be bothered if truth be known so I had to search around. Found a refrigeration engineer quite close by who does it the old fashioned way with an upside down bottle on a set of scales. Now they charge a straight £45 whatever they do. Which is more, but what a much better service they give. They checked the system over, knew all the common places for leaks - they'd just done an 80 before me as it happens. They can pressure test with helium but it's so expensive that they have reverted to nitrogen. They told me it's not as good as the molecules are large and it doesn't find leaks as well as helium.

All tested and filled and leak checked. Next morning there was clear evidence of a little weeping on the top of the compressor. I rang them. They said bring it back, we'll rescue your gas and fix the leak. Straight round and in, all sucked out and the unions unbolted. They spent some time cleaning, checking and doing the O rings. They the used a sort of liquid aluminium filler on the faces of the unions and said leave it overnight, come back tomorrow and we'll gas it. Cost me an extra £20 so all round I am happy. Very knowledgeable father and son team, Geoff has 40 years in the AC industry. I shall be going there in future.

They can also make up hoses. When pipes go, it's an expensive job especially to say the back of an 80. They have rubber AC hoses and can make up the necessary joints etc so if I get a pipe failure I shall be using them to fix it.

 

[StarCruiser]

On the subject of regassing, I have a local place that I've been very pleased with and they refill for £30 and recharge for £50. They don't repair or anything. Fill at your own risk basically. No guarantees. Well this week they couldn't fit me in. They were too busy to be bothered if truth be known so I had to search around. Found a refrigeration engineer quite close by who does it the old fashioned way with an upside down bottle on a set of scales. Now they charge a straight £45 whatever they do. Which is more, but what a much better service they give. They checked the system over, knew all the common places for leaks - they'd just done an 80 before me as it happens. They can pressure test with helium but it's so expensive that they have reverted to nitrogen. They told me it's not as good as the molecules are large and it doesn't find leaks as well as helium.

All tested and filled and leak checked. Next morning there was clear evidence of a little weeping on the top of the compressor. I rang them. They said bring it back, we'll rescue your gas and fix the leak. Straight round and in, all sucked out and the unions unbolted. They spent some time cleaning, checking and doing the O rings. They the used a sort of liquid aluminium filler on the faces of the unions and said leave it overnight, come back tomorrow and we'll gas it. Cost me an extra £20 so all round I am happy. Very knowledgeable father and son team, Geoff has 40 years in the AC industry. I shall be going there in future.

They can also make up hoses. When pipes go, it's an expensive job especially to say the back of an 80. They have rubber AC hoses and can make up the necessary joints etc so if I get a pipe failure I shall be using them to fix it.

This is exactly my experience and why I recommended to Frank to go this route.
Like any industry that involves skill (and the necessary cost that goes with paying for that knowledge), there has been an effort to 'dumb it down' so that just about anyone who can set a machine can do it. These people are called 'Technicians' except in the electrical industry where they are called 'Competent Persons'…. That's not your CV joint groaning that's me gnashing my teeth!! … I guess what I'm getting at is that on old school 'engineer' who's been taught a trade and has years of experience knows what to look for rather than rely on a machine to do the bit that makes it work.

No technicians were meant to be harmed in the making of this post.

 

[frank rabbets]

The auto machines were designed to do away with training and knowledge and to maximize profits then sold to people who could regass your A/C when it stopped working. More often the regassing was probably needed because of a leak which they are not really interested in. My A/C worked fine for 10 years of use with no regassing.

I thought of flexible pipes for the rear of my 100 Chris. Warren had some pipes made but it failed but I don't know the full story.

Those joints on the A/C have mating faces as we all know. They form a capillary and once water gets in there it can't dry out and corrosion creeps past the o ring causing a leak. I had mainly new components and put grease on the faces to try and prevent water getting in.

Unusual to have a leak on top of the pump I would have thought Chris. It's quite hot and dry there. Perhaps your car was parked up at some time in it's life covered with salty water.

 

[Towpack]

Personally I've had no issues with the regas offered by Quickfit after I'd replaced the condenser. The machine they have vacuums the system first then refills. What it doesn't do is pressure test the system for leaks first before refilling, at least I don't think it does. The condenser has gone again, failed on the bottom LHS of the matrix but when I change it I'll probably be going back to QF for a regas. We have a good local specialist here in Sheffield but they're quite a bit more expensive.

 

[Chris]

Salty water Frank? I simply can't imagine where that might have come from. You'd have to be daft to say, I don't know, drive along a beach or something.

But I didn't say it was corroded. I found the bolts were loose. Not even finger tight. Not a clue how that happened. I nipped them up but maybe trapped some dirt in there. It was mirror shiny in there when we opened it up yesterday. Just a precaution really. It was leaking for some reason, now it won't be.

 

[frank rabbets]

My new condenser failed after 2 years. It was not OEM. It had never been in salt. The fins were leaking beneath perfect black paint in 2 places. I think it was leaking from day 1. So I bought a Toyo one.

I don't think QF pressure test the system and they certainly can't check the oil quantity. They might tell you they do but nobody in the world can tell you how much oil you have.

When the car is new it comes with the correct quantity of oil. If a component is replace a certain quantity of oil is lost and must be replaced along with the new component. When a regas is done they assume the correct quantity of oil is in the system and all replacements have been done correctly, maintaining the correct oil quantity. Where they get confused is that when they evacuate the system a little oil is sucked out. The machine then adds ONLY that quantity back, so if your quantity is low when they start the regas it will be low to the exact extent after they have finished.

What usually happens over several years is that components are replaced over time and oil is not added. There is a certain amount of tolerance and a few components can be changed until the compressor eventually seizes. As the gas pressure is maintained high due to several regases the pressure valve does not cut the compressor off and the compressor seizes.

Even with a just a leak some oil will be lost. Nobody knows how much. What I did withe mine in the end was drain all components that were not new and add the correct amount of oil for the car to the compressor + 2 ounces (I think) during the regas for good measure.

 

[frank rabbets]

Ah I had assumed corrosion Chris. I can't see how a none corroded joint could leak apart from o ring problem which I guess you had. Someone had not done the bolts up. They can't just come loose unless the dowels that stop the pipe joint rotating are missing.

 

[Chris]

But that's the odd thing Frank. Never touched them and as far as I know they were as the day they left Japan. It had pressure in an worked superbly then one day under the bonnet I noticed green around the joint. Went to get a socket to nip them and found they weren't even screwed in fully. Now the system under pressure can generate up to 500 psi. They'd never have sealed at that. It's almost as though someone had been trying to nick my compressor! It was only when I wiggled the joints that I actually got a hiss so the o rings were good actually. I can't explain it really I can't. If I'd fired up the system it would have really gone for it, but as there'd been enough loss to prevent the pump from kicking in, I still had quite a bit of pressure in there. It really makes no sense at all.

 

[frank rabbets]

I don't think the new 80's came with green dye. Mine didn't so I expect someone at some time put the dye in so sometime there must have been a regas at least.

 

[StarCruiser]

Mmmm thought you might say that. With your knowledge of A/C I thought it unlikely you would not have enough oil.

I don't know if the pumps eventually go like that even with correct amount of oil. The pistons are aluminium coated with PTFE. I suppose if the PTFE wears thin and there is ally contact with ally it could pick up.

I know it was important on older cars to run the A/C every time you went out to ensure oil was circulated. That could have been an old wives tale though. I always use my A/C though.

I thought the felt washer was to keep dust off the seal but you may be right. On the compressors I stripped to find enough good parts to build a good one the main shaft was rusted right up to the seal and beyond!! So I managed to polish the best shaft. Rightly or wrongly I oiled the felt washer to stop the shaft getting wet. BTW none of the felt rings I took off had lost oil on them.

I suppose you cannot put an airline on to blow the system through to find the oil because of the expansion valve ? I took my evaporator out to check it. It was not much of a job so I suppose you could drain all the parts if you had enough time. Trouble is is is very difficult to get oil out of the condenser as there is so much surface area.

I think it's significant that it was the top piston that picked up, and of course no oil.

The instructions with the new compressor suggesting blasting out the components with 134a but doing that to atmosphere (not contained) would be frowned upon, probably illegal. Compressed air would be OK as long is it was dry and they do say to take the expansion valve out and replace it with a through connection. This should get rid of contaminants as well as oil. I would have thought nitrogen would be just as good.

Anyway I'll be doing it with my fridge engineer mate whose done loads.

 

[frank rabbets]

I put 10 ounces i.e. about 260 cc of oil in total.

Some say the oil is hygroscopic but I can't follow the trail on my bottle wording to find out.

 

[Chris]

Yes Frank, it was me. Do keep up. I went to have it gassed and the next day there was a leak. Dear oh dear THEY put the dye in then which is how I knew it was leaking. But I also had it gassed when I changed the condenser and the drier last year. Which was the second time I did it seeing as all the gas escaped through the leaks that appeared after that. It's a nuisance all round really.

 

[frank rabbets]

I hope you kept up and put oil in Chris .LOL.

 

[StarCruiser]

I put 10 ounces i.e. about 260 cc of oil in total.

Some say the oil is hygroscopic but I can't follow the trail on my bottle wording to find out.

Yes, you can get moisture in the oil. Needs putting under a good vacuum for a long period if this happens.

 

[StarCruiser]

Got my adapters made up today and fitted my compressor. Belt is the next size up, 6482 instead of the standard 6481 which is 25mm longer in the loop, two extra long bolts and two shorter bolts complete the picture and all looks good.



I also took my condenser out to drain all the oil out of it and any swarf that may have escaped from the compressor.

No oil so far!!

Far easier to remove the condenser with one headlight removed.

 

[frank rabbets]

Proper job.

 

[StarCruiser]

Had the lights off and my pal blew the condenser out with nitrogen today. No bits came out, no oil either. Blew the rest of the pipework out through the evaporator. No oil. The verdict…the oil just goes over time, evaporates and leaks out with the gas if you like, he's seen it before as its a really thin oil.

Got it all back together, went to fit the drier which was shorter than the original and… wouldn't fit!! Connection jokes were too small.

Anyone got the correct number for it? I know it isn't a Denso DFD 50003 !!! :-(

 

[frank rabbets]

Is your part number the same as 1995 24 valve? If so I'll try and find my receipt which will have the 1995 24 valve number on it.

 

[StarCruiser]

Is your part number the same as 1995 24 valve? If so I'll try and find my receipt which will have the 1995 24 valve number on it.

Thats a thought. Toyodiy give it as 88471 50020

Same for a 1995 HDJ80R-GNMEWW

So yes please, if you can have a look that would be useful. I've already found there are two on Euro 4x4 parts giving the number KBT 1001 for the later one, (05-1993 to 01-1995) but unsure of make.

 

[frank rabbets]

That is the number shown for my chassis on toyodiy and also what appears on my toyo receipt dated July 2015.

I can send you a scaled technical drawing of the top if you like.

Toyo cost was £45.29 + VAT. This reflects 10% my dealer gave me on this item.

I had trouble getting the right drier through substitute parts before. The first drier fitted OK but was 1 1/2 times longer than the original LOL. It stuck out below the bumper and looked a bit DIY. Also it was not protected and had I ventured off the road I could have hit it.