Interesting Morning

[Beau]

I've always thought if you were to over tighten the nuts, that it would be the nuts that take the stress of breaking, not the studs. I remember replacing some studs on my 350z to longer one and I'd use my impact gun and some old nuts to draw the stud in. It took a lot of force and the nuts would also damage a little and give way and the studs would always look fine...

So with this said, are you guys saying that overtime from over tightening nuts it's causes stress on the actual stud to snap like that? And what's the chance of them all going. I'd think one maybe, but I'd like to think the wheel should remain on fairly well with 3/6 nuts secured to the studs properly.

Also, I've been dealing with wheels as a side thing since a kid for the last 10 ish years now and I've used the cruiser as a show truck when selling wheels. So with this, I've had about 30-40 different sets of wheels on it, driven too on many for a while and removed, and the studs still look brand new. I must admit for years I've just tightened down the nuts with a strong arm but couple years ago changed to a torque wrench and realized just how much I was tightening them down prior. Rookie mistake I guess...

 

[flint]

+1 for using a torque wrench and check that the nuts are in good shape (rings if fitted, are free to move).

 

[Dave2000]

Good to see no one hurt, could have gone bad in a big way.

I see this a lot on older cars and indeed on my own 80 about four years back.

On the way to an airport early one morning, I felt a vibe on the motorway but only at whatever speed I was doing, slowed a little and the vibe stopped, I dismissed it as having thrown a weight so an out of balance tyre. On the way back from the airport I felt it again but at a lower speed. Pulled into a petrol garage and had a walk around check, found one rear stud sheared the others loose! Tightened the remaining nuts and took it steady and returned home. I replaced all studs/nuts on that particular hub and later when doing other maintenance replaced the other eighteen.

No idea what caused it, I do my own maintenance and the tyre shop uses a torque wrench, if they did not I would have loosened and retightened myself, perhaps something in the 80's earlier life? One thing I did notice though, the studs and nuts were in stock at the Toyota dealer........hmmmm.

One thing I do see a lot is customers who have tightened the wheel nuts with one of those telescopic wheel braces and broken a stud/bolt, so that is always a thought, I have seen many tyre fitters use the rattle gun until it stalls and then use a torque wrench to 'check' the nuts are tight, the retainers already waaaay over tightened, so something to watch for when having tyre changes.

@clivehorridge mentioned the nuts being tighter than when fitted, this is normal and good. Many wheels take their mounting/alignment point from the stud/bolt taper, a few from the wheel itself, and anyone who has tried to get a drill bit out of a Morse Taper without the correct drift will attest to the strength a taper can apply to fastener. Greasing the studs may or may not be right, depends on individual vehicles, a glance at the FSM may indicate if the torque setting is for wet or dry threads, if not mentioned then I do not as a habit grease them but, do apply a thin film of copper slip to the mounting surfaces of alloy wheels, it simply makes it easier to remove them at a later date.

regards

Dave

 

[StarCruiser]

I used to use a short hand wrench until the nuts squealed. That was with the cone nuts that were wrongly supplied with the truck. Having changed to flat nuts on OE alloys I'm using a torque wrench on all wheel nuts now.

After a Google, 76lbf or 103Nm seems to me to be the most common value for these size studs. It's what I set mine to and seems pretty loose compared to UTSABO.

 

[TonyP]

Will be interesting to see what Toyota come back with re cost, but I'm expecting 3 hrs labour, plus disk, plus new alloy, possibly hub, studs, nuts.... Excluding alloy, I reckon I'm in for £800....

I defo will be replacing all the other studs, starting right OS front as these were lose before. Anyone know in a 10T press is man enough to press these out?

On the plus side, it's justification to buy a new torque wrench as my current one is not man enough

 

[flint]

New torque wrench sounds good, but just a thought (hopefully a useful one !), if you know your own weight, then with a bit of maths and a tape measure, a piece of tape on the supplied brace would give the right position to stand on it for a correct setting if out without the wrench. Different coloured tape could be used for different likely drivers and then re checked with the torque wrench when it’s handy. Probably not very accurate just after christmas though..........

 

[TonyP]

Lol, I like that flint and I have been know to use such a technique in the past. I guess it's OK when doing an emergency change, but most times I'm at home doing dome form of maintenance so I should really do it properly.

 

[Dave2000]

On the plus side, it's justification to buy a new torque wrench as my current one is not man enough

Trying to not sound condescending and you probably know to release the torque wrench for storage after use but, others reading might not know this important point.

regards

Dave

 

[TonyP]

Trying to not sound condescending and you probably know to release the torque wrench for storage after use but, others reading might not know this important point.

regards

Dave

Well I never, how rude...

In fairness that is something I was not aware of, so thanks for the tip

 

[hopeless wanderer]

There I was cruising up the A1 on the way to work, when I hear a bang...... Hmmm I think to myself, that's not good best I pull over and just take a quick safety check.

Come off the gas doing 70mph, and drift over from the outside lane and stop in the lay-by some 300 yards later.

I step out, and check the drivers front wheel, and all the wheel studs have sheered off, and the 120 is resting on the brake disk on the wheel.... FNARK, how the hell did that happen, and how did I manage to get to the side of the road without the wheel flying off...

Now with Toyota to get fixed, but a lucky morning indeed as it could have been a lot worse...

Only early indication was a slight wobble on the steering wheel like when your wheels aren't balanced.

Does bring me back to a earlier post where I had lose wheel nuts and a suspicion or malice. I will be reviewing my cctv to see if anyone has been messing about...

Pictures for those interested....
View attachment 124850 View attachment 124851 View attachment 124852 View attachment 124853 View attachment 124854

Wow ...
I was lucky after it came right off but the laws of physics were with you aswell it seems.
The wheel must have been going round the disk like a hula hoop !!
Glad youre ok and no one was hurt.

 

[clivehorridge]

On the matter greasing, it's my contention (right or wrong) that the purpose of a torque setting is to regulate the compressive pressure between the 2 or more components being retained by the nut/bolt/stud doing the job.

I've experienced many wheel studs where simply turning the nut on a rusty thread (with no compressive loading) has exceeded the recommended torque setting. Rotational resistance due to damaged/rusty threads induces a twisting stress that is simply not designed for, when the manufacturer specifies a given bolt/stud diameter, thread pitch and type and steel tensile strength.

Torquing a damaged/rusty nut to the manufacturer's recommended may indeed leave the compressive force between components "loose", so my idea to minimize the rotational resistance and force needed to overcome it, should be beneficial.

I've never had a stud shear, I've never over tightened them, and I've never had a wheel come loose, so as I said, this is either down to pure luck or the greasing.

I agree that copper paste may be better than regular grease, but it's the principle I'm putting out there, any contra-comments will be gratefully received.

 

[TonyP]

I kinda hear what you are saying Clive, so would be interested to hear what others think. Perhaps just properly cleaned threads would suffice?

 

[clivehorridge]

Sure Tony, I agree.

But clean wheel nut/stud threads rust without something to protect them. Then it's back to square one.

 

[Dave2000]

I hear you Clive, and I completely agree with you, a rusty thread would definitely alter the amount of load applied. I was just pointing out that many FSM's indicate a 'dry or wet' torque setting may apply.

The paragraph about copper grease was for the rim mounting face where it contacts the hub, the two different metals tend to corrode and seize together, not for comparison against grease for threads.

regards

Dave

 

[StarCruiser]

I've always put Copper Ease on the threads and mating faces/hub centres. It's the hub centres that really hold if they corrode. Wire brushing of the threads and hubs as well as the mating faces, beforehand is also a good idea. This can help prevent wheel wobble if there's a lot of contaminants on the mating faces.

 

[TonyP]

So, just got a price back from Toyota. Our friendly parts guy Simon has helped again, and for the complete job with new alloy, disk, studs and nuts £660, or without the alloy £350. I've told them to go ahead at £350 and to put the spare on, and I'll get a alloy off ebay.

A lot cheaper than I was expecting.... Phew

 

[lc 120]

Result...

 

[Dave_S]

So, just got a price back from Toyota. Our friendly parts guy Simon has helped again, and for the complete job with new alloy, disk, studs and nuts £660, or without the alloy £350. I've told them to go ahead at £350 and to put the spare on, and I'll get a alloy off ebay.

A lot cheaper than I was expecting.... Phew

Wow - that's cheaper than I would have expected too - I thought you'd be £500 plus the alloy, so good result (if you can have a good result from something nasty happening - you know what I mean)..

 

[clivehorridge]

I've always putt Copper Ease on the threads and mating faces/hub centres. It's the hub centres that really hold if they corrode. Wire brushing of the threads and hubs as well as the mating faces, beforehand is also a good idea. This can help prevent wheel wobble if there's a lot of contaminants on the mating faces.

Ah, now you and Dave have proper 8os Rich, with alloy, whereas my old girl has after-market steels replacing the bike-wheel steels that came as standard Euro spec.

Steel on steel for me and they're not an interference fit, the conical nuts centre the wheel, ye olde style.

 

[clivehorridge]

So, just got a price back from Toyota. Our friendly parts guy Simon has helped again, and for the complete job with new alloy, disk, studs and nuts £660, or without the alloy £350. I've told them to go ahead at £350 and to put the spare on, and I'll get a alloy off ebay.

A lot cheaper than I was expecting.... Phew

Brilliant Tony, a happy ending to an unhappy occurrence, and a lotto win on the way (now you did buy a ticket didn't you? Don't tell me you didn't....).