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Morning start problems (Solved)

karl2000

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Air temperature sensor is part number 89424-60010 on partsouq. Diagram is also on there showing its location. Personally I'd check that first because thats what the truck is telling us!
 

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StarCruiser

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14.8V is high. Should be 14.4V just after start. It could be the volt sense connection via a fuse or fusable link to one of the battery + terminals. Sounds more like this than a faulty alternator but needs investigating before it cooks the batteries.
Shayne’s point of priming just before starting is a useful one if the primer pump is intact. It sounds like there may be fuel leaking back to the tank overnight by air getting in somewhere. It’s not always a leak that lets fuel out.
Such a leak can have quite an effect as Shayne found out after changing his fuel filter on the way to Romania, and leaving it over night forgetting to prime it up. It allowed the fuel to leak back to the tank so much that it would not start and we had to push fuel through and up to the primer by pressurising the tank with air from my tyre compressor.
With code 23 showing its defo worth investigation. Might not be the sensor but could be a poor connection or corrosion, nick in a wire (or a puncture from a needle probe) letting moisture in. Test the resistance of the sensor against a known good one before condemning it.
 

Sam

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14.8 sounds a little bit high to me - might cook the batteries - what does everyone else think? Good luck and Merry Xmas! :D


Yes, I was being a fool :doh:
Checked my scribble and indeed it did say 14.8 - but the MultiMeter clearly says 14.2 (I checked it again).
I'd like to say I have a good reason for getting that wrong but all I've got is.... daftness.

Haven't done many miles over the break - just kinda switched off for a few days - but back to it now.

Problem persists but still running just lovely once started.
Not found a leak yet and hoses all seem well fitted. Priming the fuel filter still makes no difference (already pretty hard) ... so I'm going to fill up with new fuel at the end of the week (just one more thing I can illiminate) - then move on to all the other bits suggested.

Thanks a lot again for your help - hope you are all keeping well - I will update this when I have anything of value to add :thumbup:
 

Tractionman

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Yep, as per Karl, and as long as that primer stays hard, cross leak and air off.
Thanks for update, all helps in the end for our greater knowledge, rather than as some do, just disappear and no one is none the wiser if/how fixed. Good luck with it.
 

Sam

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Update time !!! I haven't forgotten to update the post - I just haven't been able to do anything about the problem. Time, money, blah blah blah.

Recap. Since December I have needed 3 attempts to start the LC followed by 5-10 minutes of being limited to 10mph - before a restart makes things good to go (with a pretty little orange comfort indicator on the dash of course). After those 10 minutes, all is good. Runs as well as an 03 with 130k on the clock can. Starts like it should on the button for the rest of the day - even if left for 8-10 hours. Seems it needs a solid 12 hours sitting to be a problem.

As per some of the posts here (thanks for the part number @karl2000 ), the Air Temp Sensor is indeed listed in the workshop manual as one of the suspects for the reported fault code. However, they are £140 quid. Hence the wait.

A couple of days ago I decided I had no choice, bit the bullet and ordered one. I then felt the panic and decided I had nothing to lose by seeing if I could work out if it's actually broken. Here was my thinking...

- I've got a new one on order - what can go wrong?!
- I don't know how it works - but it can only be physics.
- Remove engine cover. Unclip wire connector.
- Use voltmeter to check angry pixies are making it to the clip - assume that the measured "just under 5 volts" is ok
- Remove Air Temp Sensor. Look at it. Smell it. Poke it. Zoom in on it with phone zoom magic. Ponder.
- Note how much oil/diesel residue it has on it.
- Consider that it must be some kind of resistor with air temperature changing the flow of magic pixies through it.
- Remember the magic pixies in electricals like Isopropyl alcohol.
- Pour the pixes an Isopropyl drink. Dunk the sensor in said drink. Wiggle and woggle it.
- Reinstall sensor.
- Wait patiently for the morning to come to see what happens on a cold start.

.....
.....

- Just about starts on the first try.
- 5 minutes of being limited to 10mph.
- F#@!!
- This morning it also started first time - but with a similar (though shorter) 10mph restriction.

So that's where I'm at. Picking up the new sensor tomorrow.

I did think about measuring the resistance across the sensor connections while I make the sensor hot and cold (hair dryer and ice bucket maybe). Physics suggests the reading should change if it's working - but without having a clue what reading I would be looking for across what temperature ranges (that I couldn't accurately measure) I'm wasting my time.

Decided I'm just going to risk the money. It only takes 5 minutes to fit. A garage would probably charge me that in diagnosis fees alone just to discover it's not the sensor - that I still would have had to pay for anyway.

So.... will update later in the week once fitted.
 
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Sam

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Bought and fitted - but as expected, not the issue.

Also checked the magic pixie feed to the connector terminals again to be sure. Just under 5 volts.

There's this niggling fact that although it might take 2 or 3 long key turns to start, if I then turn it straight off, it starts again prefectly... all day. It might restrict the output to 10mph for a while (only the first few minutes - likely trigerred by the starting fault?), but if I off-and-on-it, even immediately after the fist start, it's perfect.

That fact makes it feel like it isn't a direct temperature issue of any kind - otherwise it would struggle to start all the time until warm - not just the first start.

Still feels like a fueling issue... but the primer stays primed (hard to push) over night.

Stumped again.
 

karl2000

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Bugger!

Do you still get the check engine light? Might be worth trying to plug it into techstream (or equiv) to check the codes again now you've replaced that sensor. Try and get a full Pxxx or Cxxx type code rather than just the number if you can. Also if you can get a video of the live data when its acting up (10mph) that might give us some more clues as to what the problem is....

Doesn't sound like it can be much as the car works OK once you get it going!
 

karl2000

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If you still get code 23 (or equivalent) it could be the wiring between the (new) sensor and the ECU. The steps in the repair manual for code 23 should help narrow it down to the actual problem. Its easier if you have access to a tester or techstream.
 

Sam

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Quick update just for the comedy value ...

After my last post I got really busy for a couple of weeks and made no progress. Then the problem went away. I'm guessing the weather moved through the optimum temperature zone for a couple of weeks and it started first time on the button - it was perfect.

Then the weather got hot and the problem came back - only worse. Strangely, pumping the filter primer seemed to help a little this time but no amount of checking hoses, cleaning connector plugs etc. made a difference. So, with an MOT looming I gave up and booked it in to a "diesel specialist" for the end of next week.

..... and then .....

I decided to go out for a birthday drive last night - but it wouldn't start. Tried again, lots of good chugging but no go.

- Opened the bonnet, primed the filter, turned the key ..... NO DASH LIGHTS !!! hmmmm ...
- Turned key off and on again ... no dash lights and no fuel pump whirring.
- Turned the key off and tried to take it out of the ignition ... the old cracked key fob broke off in my hand !!!

Yup, the GENIUS Toyota design of an electrical fault that leaves your key trapped in the ignition had appeared. Morons.

- I did the shift lock thing many times, with ignition on and off, with brake on and off etc, but it won't release the key.
- Tried all manner of key off, key on, in park, in neutral, with one arm in the air and even talking quietly to the steering wheel - but nope.
- Turning the ignition on does now get the fuel pump whirring but I've got no dash lights and they key wont turn far enough to start

So that's where I am. Key blade trapped in the barrel and no dash lights. Like I said, update for comedy value.

I suppose my next step is to check all my fuses and possibly see if I can locate the solonoid that controls the key trap - but even if I find it i'm only going to be able to hit it with a bloody hammer.

I'm thinking I just need to accept fate and get it put on the back of a lorry - with the theme tune to the muppets playing in the background. Happy birthday :clap:
 

karl2000

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Bloody hell Sam!

Stupid design with the key- sod's law for it to snap just at the wrong time.

Is your battery still OK?

Agree that first step is to check all the fuses, something must have blown - though not sure how priming the filter would cause an electrical issue! Unless the movement of it caused a short somewhere.

If you can find a blown fuse that should give a clue as to what circuit to look at....

Obviously even if you get life back into the dashboard, and can turn the key with pliers the immobiliser won't be happy because the chip isnt at the end of your key..... (although thats the next problem!)
 

Sam

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You're right that the immobiliser will complain without the fob - but once I get the key out I can hopefully glue it back together - then I'm just back to the original "won't start".

I've just been out to do a better check. I was not in the mood last night once the key broke. :doh:

- Holding the key fob reeeally close to the ignition makes no difference (just to rule it out)
- Batteries are good and I've got power to everything I've tried, lights, windows, roof, radio, air con etc etc etc.
- I can see dash lights for turn signals, "R" for reverse gear (no other gear positions) and headlights / foglights
- I have no dash lights for anything else including batery, dials etc.
- All other lights work including interior, clock, radio, center console etc. and exterior
- When the ignition is in the ON position, and the gear lever is moved into PARK, I can hear and feel a definate click in the ignition barrel (solonoid working then?)
- When the gear lever is NOT in park, I can't get the key to the LOCK position, when it is, i "almost" think I can
- I can free the box from PARK either with the shift lock button, or the brake pedal when the ignition is ON
- When the ignition is in the ON position, the fuel pump buzzes along as usual

The owners manual says the shift lock system is on fuse 45 in the panel under the dash. That's an "ECU-IG 10 amp" that also does things like abs, traction control, air con, sun roof etc. Fuse 45 looks good though and related systems like air con and sun roof seem to be working. The "click" in the ignition barrel when I move it in and out of park also suggests this is ok.

Feels to me like the key trap solonoid is working and maybe there is a mechanical fault in the ignition barrel - but the lack of dash makes me doubt it again.

Digging deeper through the fuse list.
 
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karl2000

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And in the internal fuse box, fuse 46 IG1 10A and fuse 34 GAUGE 7.5A

From a quick look at the wiring diagram they're the ones I can see that go to the cluster.....
 

Sam

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Thanks for taking the time to look that up Karl.
19 (Dome), 34 & 46 all check out (by that I mean no visible signs of failure and the things listed in the book for them work).
I'm checking fuses by taking them out one by one, putting a bright light behind them and zooming all the way in with my phone - they all look 100%.
I've found a few rumours that the rear lights affect the dash on other Toyota models - but the fuses for those appear ok and the lights work.

I'm stumped again now. Can't find any blown fuses or anything that doesn't work apart from dash lights - oh and the car.

Would be an odd coincidence if a mechanical faiure in the barrel just happened to happen at the same time that the dash wiring failed. This latest fiasco started during a long crank trying to get it going. Possible that it fried something other than a fuse? That's going to be hard to tell without dash lights.

I could try dismantling the dash and getting a look at the dash dimmer - but I don't think that affects warning lights etc does it (just the gauges)?

.... I'm not looking forward to the call to put it on a recovery truck with a broken key in the ignition. :doh::doh::doh:
 

karl2000

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Hmm. Just saw a power source diagram (attached), and I think the ignition switch provides the 12V to the gauge 7.5A fuse, so that might be the link- a physical fault with the ignition switch might be possible.

Assuming your 7.5A fuse is OK, do you see any voltage on the fuse when you would expect to see your dash lights? (Ie ignition on)
 

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karl2000

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Just checked and youre right - the dimmer does not affect the warning lights!

Can you check the fuses with a multimeter?
 

Sam

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Yeah I would have expected to be able to start it too - except for the other problem of not being able to turn the key to the START position. Just wont budge past ON - or come out :think:
 
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