Snapped Cam Belt after 35K

[Ecoman]

A friend of mine from the Hilux Club forum has had a bit of a mishap with his LC100. 35K miles after the cambelt was fitted by a toyota dealer, it snapped! this was his post...

Toyota disassembled the engine and gave us the good news.... £6k and they'll fix it!!!!!

Basically the timing belt has snapped, done some valves in, and damaged the head. That quote is for a new head rebuilt and fitted. They reckon the short engine is fine.

Bill do you know:
1) Where we could source a fully built head? (Prefferably genuine)
2) Where we could source a 4.2TD engine?
3) How much the LC is worth as it is?
4) Toyota changed the belt 35k ago - are they liable in any way for it snapping?

It is a LC Amazon, 2000 model, 4.2TD, manual, 180k, full Toyota service history, OME Springs/Shocks all round (to get rid of stupid auto-height-control).

Any help would be much appreciated

My knowledge of the 100s is very limited and I don't want to give advice without consulting a grown up first. As he Toby says, any help or advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Paul]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-Amazon ... 19c89e4e74

 

[Ecoman]

Thanks Paul. I passed this onto him and he is already trying to contact the seller for a price and proof of mileage.

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

alternatively http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-LANDCR ... 529wt_1139 for just a head and then replace valves as needed.

 

[Gav Peter]

I have no connection with Bellocat but have bought from them & the service was fine; product seems to be holding up well too

 

[Ecoman]

Thanks again. Although I did point that out to him earlier and he said he would chase the engine first and the head second.

The problem is that his LC has been owned by him from new and its got a full toyota service and repair history and he doesn't want to go anywhere else to get them to do the work but this latest bill is extracting the urine somewhat. If he can get them to transplant an engine it would keep him happy but if he needs to he will just get the parts elsewhere and supply them himself.

 

[Zeusv8]

Hi sorry to butt in here but are you saying that Toyota are washing their hands of this and not taking responsibility for their parts?? I'm due to get a timing belt done on Monday at a hefty price I might add from Toyota Manchester, might go elsewhere if they can't guarantee the quality of their own parts !! It might be worth it for your mate to seek legal advice on this?!?

 

[Cptsideways]

I assume a tensioner/bearing failed causing the belt failure?

£6K for a head rebuild is taking the piss! 2k tops with labour I'd suggest more like £1200 would be reasonable.

 

[frank rabbets]

A cambelt should last for the stated period or miles. A contract with the garage lasts 6 years; no way out of that. So you can sue for up to 6 years. Difficulty is in proving what went wrong. Trading standards have helped me in the past and are no pushover from Toyota point of view. Does not matter who fitted the 'belt BTW.

Frank

 

[Tobin]

Hi everyone - i am the previously mentioned Toby with the destroyed engine

We went and collected the LC from the garage today... basically what has happened is the casting that holds the idler pulley has snapped, meaning the pulley (with bearing) fell off. This has obviously caused the same effect as a snapped timing belt. Some of the valves have hit the pistons and been forced back up which has destroyed the rocker shaft, a few of the rocker arms, and all the caps that held the rocker shaft down.

Thankfully the small engine (i.e. block crank etc) appears to be fine, no piston damage, the head casting appears to be ok, as does the cam shaft, and all the valves.

The £6k quote was for a complete new head/valves/shafts etc and fitting. Apparently this was necessary because you cannot buy the rocker shaft or rocker arms separate to the head - it comes as one complete unit or it doesnt come at all!

We have inspected the failed idler pulley unit and it is appears to have cracked in two places causing the pulley to come loose. Interestingly one of the cracks is discoloured and corroded as if it happened a long time ago, while the other crack is obviously the one that just happened causing it to fall off. The idler unit is bolted on using a stepped (partially threaded) bolt so even if it was over torqued it could not have put pressure on the casting and caused this failure.

However, we bought the vehicle from new in 2000 and it has a full service history, including a new timing belt 35k ago. Apparently they are good for 70k so it is well within its life span.

As already mentioned we are wondering about liability, the possibility of getting Toyota to fix it under some sort of warranty, and whether we have any sort of leg to stand on. Apparently the idler pulley is only changed if it shows sign of damage.

I will add photos tomorrow to explain the problem better. Sorry about the long post! Thanks in advance for the help guys

Toby

 

[frank rabbets]

If they should have inspected the idler pulley casting you may have them as a crack is detectable and you say you have an old crack. Even I have a crack detecter and shall be looking at my casting asap.
Any pics? I have a 2004 I wonder if it is a modified design?

Frank

 

[frank rabbets]

Hi Tobin

Forgot to say "bad luck".
I removed my 100 tensioner bracket and crack detected it. Perfect. I cannot see how this bracket can crack unless it was faulty manufacture or abused at some point. I would ask Toyota for their instructions for changing the cambelt. My 80 manual says to remove the idler tensioner and inspect the bearing for wear but it does not mention the bracket [shown still attached].

Frank

 

[Tobin]

Difficulty is in proving what went wrong.

I think this is the problem we face, it is almost impossible to point the finger of blame with out concrete evidence.

I'm due to get a timing belt done on Monday at a hefty price I might add from Toyota Manchester

All i would say is that for £100 extra i reckon its worth doing the idler as well. Its a lot cheaper than fitting a new head

I cannot see how this bracket can crack unless it was faulty manufacture or abused at some point

I agree, but since we have never touched the engine the 'abuse' or 'fault' must be on their (Toyota) part!

I assume a tensioner/bearing failed causing the belt failure?
No, the bearing is fine, a tiny bit of play but nothing unusual. It was the cast part that holds the pulley that failed.

Just about to add a full post with pics bare with me...

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

I'm struggling to find the thread now but we had someone else posting with a similar problem a while back didn't we? Not 100% sure the cause was exactly the same but a busted head and valve gear were the outcome, I'll have another search.

EDIT: wrong forum and no mention of a broken tensioner: http://www.tlocuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6659

 

[Tobin]

So...

This is the entire top end in the boot:

Here is the block. Fortunately, because the top of the pistons are completely flat, when the valves hit them there was no damage. The pistons and cylinder walls both look fine - thank god!

This is the idler pulley, you can see which bit has cracked off:

Here you can see the old crack (on the right) which is black and obviously a lot older than the fresh break on the left:

The bolt and hole for the bolt holding the idler pulley on was worn very badly on one side:

You can see how it must have been rattling about because the bolt hole has been elongated and deformed. This photo also shows the idler:

There are two sleeves pushed in to the casting with a small gap between. This explains the strange ridge in the centre of the bolt:

And here is some interesting damage to the block where the idler bolts on. It looks like it is scored as if the washer has been spinning some how?

Bascially what has happened is the timing belt has snapped, the valves have hit the pistons, the pistons have forced the valves back up, which in turn has forced the rocker arms up causing some of the rocker arms to snap - and some of the rocker shaft retaining caps to snap too (allowing the rocker shaft to lift up and relieve the pressure on all the valves/pistons).

The rocker arms are not much of an issue as we can buy them individually. The three bits on the right are the rocker arms that have been damaged:

The real problem is the caps that hold down the rocker and cam shaft. There are 7 in total, 3 of which are damaged. They hold down both shafts, and unfortunately of the 200 odd parts comprising the head, these are the ONLY component you cannot buy individually. Presumably they are machined and paired to the head. Because of this you have to buy an entire head just to get the caps.

Its the bits on the left in this photo that have been damaged, these are the caps that hold the shafts in place:

And this is them in-situ so you can see what they do:

And just for good measure here is the entire head assembled and partially disassembled:

It is VERY annoying that the only part you cannot buy individually is the part we need! We have spoken to Karl from landcrusierparts.co.uk and he might have a head we can buy. I will ring him again tomorrow but he wanted £450 which is a LOT less than all the other options.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, particularly with regards to the idler pulley failing. Thanks in advance guys, and cheers for the responses already

 

[frank rabbets]

I think I know what caused that!!!!! No oil in the lower piston body assembly 100%.
The shaft it bears on shows clear signs of wear but it should hardly move due to being kept under tension by the hydraulic piston and spring assembly bolted to the engine and just beneath it. If there is no oil in the bottom assembly the pulley holder will be vibrating like the devil on the shaft and taking shocks.

The manual says to inspect the piston assembly for oil leakage. And DO NOT turn it upside down.

Tobin.. Do you still have the piston assembly. It should be almost impossible to compress the piston due to hydraulic action inside. If it feels springy there is no oil. Don't throw it away.
If in doubt compare with a new one. Mr T in my view should pick the bill up if FSH.

Frank

 

[Rob]

Frank, not sure I follow you. When you say piston body are you referring to the hydraulic tensioner? (that's if HDJ100s have a hydraulic cam belt tensioner)

 

[Tobin]

Frank, not sure I follow you. When you say piston body are you referring to the hydraulic tensioner? (that's if HDJ100s have a hydraulic cam belt tensioner)

They do use a hydraulic tensioner yes. I will check it now. I have the old and the new one. The guys at toyota were saying you can bugger them up by compressing them too qucikly i.e. when the cam belt was done the tensioner may have been compressed in a vice too quickly causing it to fail. I will look in to this cheers

 

[frank rabbets]

Hi Tobin

Whatever you do don't throw the old parts away. The piston in a good tensioner will be slow to compress but quick to fly out. A bad tensioner will compress quickly.

Frank

Hi Rob
Yes they do use a hydraulic and combined spring tensioner on the 100. Just taken mine to bits and it is so clear why Tobin's failed. My idler pulley bracket was seized on it's spindle because there had been so little movement. That's how it should be [almost].

 

[frank rabbets]

BTW

My 80 has an identical cambelt tensioner arrangement. When I first changed the belt I took the piston assembly to bits to see how it worked. It's like a hydraulic ratchet effect which stops the pulley bracket from vibrating with the backlash because if only a spring were used it would have to be too strong for the belt. On other belt engines I've worked on there is just an idler pulley and bracket which you force up against the belt and do the nut up tight. There is so little wear when you take an old belt off it is hardly loose at all. With one car I did 260,000 miles and changed the belt 5 times without even touching the pulley. Just slide the old belt off and the new one on.

Tobin, Did you hear any rattling from the front of the engine?

Frank