The people have spoken

[goodoldboy]

arrogant, narrow minded, judgemental, dismissive,patronising, bigoted, ill informed, ignorant and stupid side of remain.

Perhaps I should clarify my position.
The basic problem with a parliamentary democracy is that in theory the people could vote in policies that would damage the interest of the wealthy & powerful.
From the Levelers & Diggers to the Peterloo massacre & beyond the majority have fought against the powers that be & won concessions.
The last 40 years has seen in the UK a concerted & mostly successful attempt to undo theses gains but if the majority are ignorant they're not stupid so someone has to take the blame.
A consensus has been built that turns a redundant worker into a scrounger , a disabled persons into a parasite & the idea of a public service existing an affront to free choice.so a section of the population was convinced that selling of assets paid for by taxpayers was a good idea.
The people who make the UK what it is are doctors , nurses , fire fighters , teachers & every other working person.What better way of obscuring the really if massive & increasing wealth on one side & growing poverty on the other by blaming every problem on those without a voice & foreigners be it autocrats in Brussels or your Polish plummer?

 

[goodoldboy]

despite being forbidden the agility that made it a global power in the first place

Let's remember what exactly that "agility" was.using military superiority to invade places , exterminate & enslave their population& plunder their wealth.Protectionism backed by military might keep the empire great not free trade.Most of the UK economy revolves around folks spending money on stuff they don't need , so called trade doesn't amount to that much but what is left of manufacturing Agriculture & finance will be hit hard by a no deal Brexit.London is the world's biggest money laundering centre & Brexit will strengthen this.

 

[Shayne]

A consensus has been built that turns a redundant worker into a scrounger , a disabled persons into a parasite & the idea of a public service existing an affront to free choice.

40 years you say what might that coincide with .......... they dont work for us thats why people stopped voting , whats the point when it really doesn't matter who gets paid by the global corperation that fronts as the EU .

Let's remember what exactly that "agility" was.using military superiority to invade places , exterminate & enslave their population& plunder their wealth.Protectionism backed by military might keep the empire great not free trade.Most of the UK economy revolves around folks spending money on stuff they don't need , so called trade doesn't amount to that much but what is left of manufacturing Agriculture & finance will be hit hard by a no deal Brexit.London is the world's biggest money laundering centre & Brexit will strengthen this.

I guess its a good thing that your pathological hatred of all things British can only be labelled as "pro eu"because if not what else might it be called ?

 

[hopeless wanderer]

I thought I had, the EU distributed funds to deprived areas which Wes

3 years on and i'm still waiting for a heartwarming positive message about the benefits of EU membership delivered by a person with the common touch .

In this divorce the adultress , abusive , vindictive wife doesn't want to divorce her ever suffering gravy train husband and she has it all sewn up with her lawyers and her counter claims . In her blind arrogance she cannot see that project fear prompts rage rather than fear .

Hubby's compromise is not to bulldoze the house with her in it because the consequences of that will be global , but hey if she insists .

We are not out of the EU yet hopeless wanderer , for 3 years we have been trapped leaderless in a farcical situation that would undoubtedly have made any other member state capitulate , we are dealing with the worst right now , even without brexit global growth is shrinking , Germany fears recession , but the UK plods on despite being forbidden the agility that made it a global power in the first place . Britain is not the insignificant isolated little island remainers would have us believe .

If we replace EU goods with American do you think those we abandoned will respond by reducing production and staff to offset the loss , will they hell instead they will start working furiously to offer a cost effective alternative to us buying elsewhere .

I thought I had Shayne, the EU allocates money to areas that Westminster has ignored for decades.
As for American trade deals, remember this is the nation that left us a bill after WW2 where other nations gave lives and resources without expectation of repayment that we finally paid off just a decade ago. American trade deals look like this.
It's fine to hail back to the glories of the industrial revolution and the times since where Britain was an innovator and our products were famed the world over, but that show got to the end of the season and wasn't renewed. A huge part of the UK economy is in the financial sector after a move away from manufacturing industry, frankly i honestly want to see decline in the square mile and the city that echoes the decline in the car factories, the steel plants and the industrial heartlands of Britain.
I don't mean the kind of decline that means Dominic the hedge fund manager doesn't upgrade the Audi for a Porsche this year. I'm talking leaping from the windows of Canary Wharf, great depression kind of decline. Out of chaos comes order ...

 

[hopeless wanderer]

40 years you say what might that coincide with .......... they dont work for us thats why people stopped voting , whats the point when it really doesn't matter who gets paid by the global corperation that fronts as the EU .




I guess its a good thing that your pathological hatred of all things British can only be labelled as "pro eu"because if not what else might it be called ?

I read this thing about the Belgian Congo a few days ago and it’s been playing on my mind a bit.
The picture shows a man called Nsala looking at his 5 year old daughters hand and foot, severed because he didn’t bring enough rubber to his colonial “masters”
I’m not going to go into detail about the genocides and war crimes of the empire (they’re pretty well documented) But we did stuff like this and worse to people near and far alike. I think throwing terms like “anti British” around is a lame ploy by the leaving side to somehow suggest they are more patriotic than those who wish to remain. Both groups have if anything an equal amount of concern for the prosperity and good of the nation and it’s people.
It’s also worthwhile remembering that the appalling acts similar to this comittted by our country were rarely for the benefit of the average “joe”
The slave ships, the banana, tobacco and cotton plantations etc made wealthy people wealthier. The wealthy don’t care who they f**k over to make money and they’ve been f***ing us over just as they did to people in “the colonies” to suggest that someone who rightly recognises the crimes of their forefathers is anti British is as insane as accusing someone in Germany who recognises the horrors of the holocaust as being “anti German”.
The picture was taken in 1904.
Her name was Boali and she was 5 years old.

Apologies for the distressful image feel free to remove Admin if it’s against the rules.

 

[moggy1968]

Perhaps I should clarify my position.
The basic problem with a parliamentary democracy is that in theory the people could vote in policies that would damage the interest of the wealthy & powerful.
From the Levelers & Diggers to the Peterloo massacre & beyond the majority have fought against the powers that be & won concessions.
The last 40 years has seen in the UK a concerted & mostly successful attempt to undo theses gains but if the majority are ignorant they're not stupid so someone has to take the blame.
A consensus has been built that turns a redundant worker into a scrounger , a disabled persons into a parasite & the idea of a public service existing an affront to free choice.so a section of the population was convinced that selling of assets paid for by taxpayers was a good idea.
The people who make the UK what it is are doctors , nurses , fire fighters , teachers & every other working person.What better way of obscuring the really if massive & increasing wealth on one side & growing poverty on the other by blaming every problem on those without a voice & foreigners be it autocrats in Brussels or your Polish plummer?

I think I said a while back about the program I watched about the expenses saga. The politicians still don’t get that and why people were pissed off about it, they thought if they threw a few sacrificial lambs on the fire it would all go away, but that was the trigger for many people that made them realise what was going on, it was from them that the large scale feeling of being disenfranchised and having a political elite solely out for their own gain and entirely detached from the needs of the man in the street started to be felt by the larger population. I think brexit was very much a statement of that dissatisfaction with the political status quo, much as the election of trump was in the states.

 

[moggy1968]

I haven't read all the comments but i'll get round to it later.
The way funds are allotted back to the UK mean that money is directed to the poorest areas of the UK, The North East, South Wales etc. These are areas that have been neglected by Westminster for decades and when Westminster allocates spending barely anything escapes outside the M25.
Looking at it economically we have lost our AAA credit rating, we've dropped 2 places in the global economic rankings and the pound is just off it's lowest against the US dollar than in the last 35 years.
Will we leave ? I'm not sure. If we do and it's because Boris suspends parliament so we crash out it'll be catastrophic. Will we rejoin ? Probably but we will probably not get the rebates etc we receive now.

The us markets are particularly strong, the part of my pension fund that’s invested in a USA fund has grown 40%in the last year. That’s as much a cause of the poor exchange rates as brexit, if not more so. Against other currencies we have recovered quite a bit of value as project fear turned into project not much.
We pay significantly more to the EU than we receive back. About triple I think from memory.

We really do need to stop this londonisation (actually meaning pretty much anywhere south of Cambridge and east of Swindon) of everything, it’s making housing unaffordable for key workers while clogging up the roads with more and more congestion and increasing local pollution.

I'm not sure why your using an example from the ‘belgian’ Congo to illustrate British colonial atrocities.

That photograph was taken by a BRITISH missionary seeking to expose the brutal rule of king Leopold if Belgium.

‘In the 23 years (1885-1908) Leopold II ruled the Congo he massacred 10 million Africans by cutting off their hands and genitals, flogging them to death, starving them into forced labour, holding children ransom and burning villages. The ironic part of this story is that Leopold II committed these atrocities by not even setting foot in the Congo. Under Leopold II’s administration, the Congo Free State became one of the greatest international scandals of the early 20th century.’

I think before hating the U.K. for its colonial acts you need to look at what other colonial powers did, we did a great deal better than the Germans, the Belgians, the Dutch and the French in our treatment of the colonies. We also were the leading power in the abolitionist movement, yet we seem to be the only one of those former colonial powers that feels the need for this kind of self flagellation.

 

[Shayne]

A consensus has been built that turns a redundant worker into a scrounger , a disabled persons into a parasite & the idea of a public service existing an affront to free choice.

And these people sit at home dreaming of a British empire while they try to decide if they should spend their last fiver for a couple of weeks on food or electricity do they

I thought I had Shayne, the EU allocates money to areas that Westminster has ignored for decades.

Aye it helps the above people trememdously that thanks to the EU they now at least have plenty of places to park their yachts while they contemplate world domination

Brexiteers have as much contempt for the political class of every genre as do Remainers , they voted for direct rule nothing more and nothing less ,
is it so difficult to understand that its an insult to the sensibilities of most when the EU grandiously orders 10 million of 30 million we gave them to be spent on something that is of absolutely no use whatsoever to historical residents of the recipient area when people continue to die in that area because they can't afford an ambulance !

 

[Rob Cowell]

There may not be the self-flagellation over history in other countries, but there may not be the same level of evocation of the halcyon days of forced-trade and global war.

 

[goodoldboy]

And these people sit at home dreaming of a British empire while they try to decide if they should spend their last fiver for a couple of weeks on food or electricity do they

I'm not sure what you mean mate????

 

[Shayne]

I'm not sure what you mean mate????

You seem to think everyone who voted out had some biblicly epic and deliriously unreasonable purpose .

Whereas i'm quite sure the vast majority who voted out did so out of utter contempt for the very idea that anyone anywhere in power gives a damn about them .

I find myself thinking of they guy who hadn't been paid his wages for weeks so drove a digger into the building he was working on causing millions of pounds worth of damage . You can bet your bottom dollar he don't regret it because he had nothing to lose .

 

[hopeless wanderer]

The us markets are particularly strong, the part of my pension fund that’s invested in a USA fund has grown 40%in the last year. That’s as much a cause of the poor exchange rates as brexit, if not more so. Against other currencies we have recovered quite a bit of value as project fear turned into project not much.
We pay significantly more to the EU than we receive back. About triple I think from memory.

We really do need to stop this londonisation (actually meaning pretty much anywhere south of Cambridge and east of Swindon) of everything, it’s making housing unaffordable for key workers while clogging up the roads with more and more congestion and increasing local pollution.

I'm not sure why your using an example from the ‘belgian’ Congo to illustrate British colonial atrocities.

That photograph was taken by a BRITISH missionary seeking to expose the brutal rule of king Leopold if Belgium.

‘In the 23 years (1885-1908) Leopold II ruled the Congo he massacred 10 million Africans by cutting off their hands and genitals, flogging them to death, starving them into forced labour, holding children ransom and burning villages. The ironic part of this story is that Leopold II committed these atrocities by not even setting foot in the Congo. Under Leopold II’s administration, the Congo Free State became one of the greatest international scandals of the early 20th century.’

I think before hating the U.K. for its colonial acts you need to look at what other colonial powers did, we did a great deal better than the Germans, the Belgians, the Dutch and the French in our treatment of the colonies. We also were the leading power in the abolitionist movement, yet we seem to be the only one of those former colonial powers that feels the need for this kind of self flagellation.

I don’t hate the UK for its colonial acts ? That’s the core point I was trying to make. Does a German who accepts the Germans committed the holocaust hate Germany ? I’d say no but it seems whenever anyone even mentions the many crimes of our political policy, disloyalty is the first accusation made by some.
I picked the picture as an example as I said it’d been playing on my mind if you want to see the drawings of West Indian slaves with their anus packed with gunpowder tied out spreadeagle waiting for the fuse to be lit you can go and find them because they’re there.
We aren’t even just talking just the empire, long after the empire we seem to still play the same games.
Sending the SAS to train the Khmer Rouge to lay mines in Cambodia.
Training Gadaffis forces, supplying the Saudis right now with weapons that have caused the largest famine in 30 years and the largest outbreak of cholera in human history. Voting the Saudis onto the UN panel for human rights (no honestly we did) cos that’s how shit our politicians are and how easily bought they are.
Nothing to do with the people everything to do with the wealth and the political ruling classes... any oversight of this shower of bastards is good in my opinion wherever it comes from.

 

[moggy1968]

I d

There may not be the self-flagellation over history in other countries, but there may not be the same level of evocation of the halcyon days of forced-trade and global war.

I don’t believe there is in the UK either.
France, Germany, and Holland all have their share of right wing nationalists.

I have no problem with an accurate portrayal of our history, trouble is, this self flagellation and collective national guilt is not an accurate portrayal of either ours, or other countries history.

 

[moggy1968]

a

I don’t hate the UK for its colonial acts ? That’s the core point I was trying to make. Does a German who accepts the Germans committed the holocaust hate Germany ? I’d say no but it seems whenever anyone even mentions the many crimes of our political policy, disloyalty is the first accusation made by some.
I picked the picture as an example as I said it’d been playing on my mind if you want to see the drawings of West Indian slaves with their anus packed with gunpowder tied out spreadeagle waiting for the fuse to be lit you can go and find them because they’re there.
We aren’t even just talking just the empire, long after the empire we seem to still play the same games.
Sending the SAS to train the Khmer Rouge to lay mines in Cambodia.
Training Gadaffis forces, supplying the Saudis right now with weapons that have caused the largest famine in 30 years and the largest outbreak of cholera in human history. Voting the Saudis onto the UN panel for human rights (no honestly we did) cos that’s how shit our politicians are and how easily bought they are.
Nothing to do with the people everything to do with the wealth and the political ruling classes... any oversight of this shower of bastards is good in my opinion wherever it comes from.

And staying in the EU will help this will it? No, of course it won’t because all the countries of the eu have and do the same stuff and worse. We are not the bogey man of Europe or the rest of the world ffs!
We have a lot to be proud of in this country but it seems to be some bizarre national trait to ignore those and instead whine on in some kind of self indulgent obsession of selective guilt ridden ringing of hands.
I’m well aware of the history of our country, good and bad, but I look at it within the context of its time and other world events and I don’t use it as some kind of bizarre rationalisation for staying in a corrupt, self serving, elitist, unaccountable and immoral organisation like the EU, because that would be a really weird association!!! Meanwhile those that want to leave that organisation, or people that are actually proud of their country and it’s achievements, are collectively labelled thick ignorant right wing racists by those with a different opinion. That seems to me to be somewhat hypocritical.

 

[goodoldboy]

You seem to think everyone who voted out had some biblicly epic and deliriously unreasonable purpose .

Whereas i'm quite sure the vast majority who voted out did so out of utter contempt for the very idea that anyone anywhere in power gives a damn about them .

I find myself thinking of they guy who hadn't been paid his wages for weeks so drove a digger into the building he was working on causing millions of pounds worth of damage . You can bet your bottom dollar he don't regret it because he had nothing to lose .

Yeah I think a lot of folks voted F*** you & I agree that with a few exceptions politicians don't give a toss about us.but the likes of Rees mogg & co.want to have a free hand to lower wages , increase hours & do away with health & safety , consumer protection , basic human rights & anything else that might stand in the way of even more wealth for them.some folks have bought the lie that they'll be better off , like some who voted Trump in the hope that jobs would return to the rust belt.Farage is a racist scumbag & most of his,supporters voted to get rid of immigration.
If by some miracle Brexit produces an economic benefit contour really think that the gang of ex public schoolboys & sundry spivs that run the country are simply going to share out the proceeds?

 

[goodoldboy]

@Moggy
"Patriotism , the last refuge of a scoundrel"
Or disliking people you haven't met & being proud of things you haven't done.
There is no hand wringing obsession or collective guilt as far as I can see just an honest desire for some reflection on our colonial past.
Any attempt to discuss this provokes a backslash & your response is a typical example.
A similar response happens here in Spain with regard to attempts to remove Fascist symbols from public buildings or exhume the remains of those who were liquidated during the coup.
The guilt thing is a complete red herring , an absurd idea that anyone alive now should feel guilty for the past & no one who criticizes our colonial past has called for this.

 

[moggy1968]

Yeah I think a lot of folks voted F*** you & I agree that with a few exceptions politicians don't give a toss about us.but the likes of Rees mogg & co.want to have a free hand to lower wages , increase hours & do away with health & safety , consumer protection , basic human rights & anything else that might stand in the way of even more wealth for them.some folks have bought the lie that they'll be better off , like some who voted Trump in the hope that jobs would return to the rust belt.Farage is a racist scumbag & most of his,supporters voted to get rid of immigration.
If by some miracle Brexit produces an economic benefit contour really think that the gang of ex public schoolboys & sundry spivs that run the country are simply going to share out the proceeds?

Rees-Mogg is a fine upstanding example if a facist cxxx

I’ve not really heard much from Farage that would constitute racism, generally he seems pretty articulate and if you ignore the BBC style selective bullshit reporting and actually listen to what he says I think he makes some valid points which are well presented.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

If voters voted to leave out of contempt it's understandable but look at who they voted for.
We have an old Etonian ex Bullingdon club PM who took over after the caretaker woman who filled the gap after the last old Etonian ex Bullingdon club member resigned.
Now look at the cabinet a little closer and the 2 in the leadership race, We have one who "forgot" he bought 7 apartments on the South cost at the cost of 1.5 million after he spent his last cabinet positon screwing the NHS.
He was up against the now PM who spent all the TV time criticizing Putin after the poisoning thing but then took 120,00 pounds as a donation to play tennis with the wife of Putin's general.
We have a home secretary who went on undeclared free holidays to Israel and was lobbied to serve their interests and didn't bother declaring it.
All the while they they're tipping the disabled out of wheelchairs, declaring stage four cancer patients fit to work when they are literally at death's door and funniest of all they are using ATOS a French company to perform the medical assessments all the while crowing on about getting back sovereignty.
Well if this sovereignty lays with parliament then dissolving it to leave with no deal when parliament has voted to the contrary 3 times is a far bigger slight to sovereignty than the EU managed in four decades.
The EU has it's flaws for sure, the common agriculture policy pays subsidies to the queen and her jug eared son to the tune of millions, the second largest recipient is the king of Saudi Arabia FFS because he owns great swathes of land in Britain.
Moggy you said you don't want to stay in the EU because its : A corrupt, self serving, elitist, unaccountable and immoral organisation,
Show me the difference between them and the shower of shite that are the alternative.
Trade deal with Brazil you say ? Great we can get a pound of sugar from there for about 9 pence rather than subsidise sugar beet production in the EU. Guess what though if you think your going to walk into a supermarket and find the prices have dropped due to trade deals you're deluded because Tate and Lyle aren't going to drop the price a penny. Just yesterday France decided to tax the US tech companies and the response was they'll be punished with tariffs. We've been America's bitch for decades and it'll only get worse, You'll swap an agreement with our closest neighbors for one across the Atlantic and it's not going to be any better and could potentially be a hell of a lot worse.

 

[moggy1968]

If voters voted to leave out of contempt it's understandable but look at who they voted for.
We have an old Etonian ex Bullingdon club PM who took over after the caretaker woman who filled the gap after the last old Etonian ex Bullingdon club member resigned.
Now look at the cabinet a little closer and the 2 in the leadership race, We have one who "forgot" he bought 7 apartments on the South cost at the cost of 1.5 million after he spent his last cabinet positon screwing the NHS.
He was up against the now PM who spent all the TV time criticizing Putin after the poisoning thing but then took 120,00 pounds as a donation to play tennis with the wife of Putin's general.
We have a home secretary who went on undeclared free holidays to Israel and was lobbied to serve their interests and didn't bother declaring it.
All the while they they're tipping the disabled out of wheelchairs, declaring stage four cancer patients fit to work when they are literally at death's door and funniest of all they are using ATOS a French company to perform the medical assessments all the while crowing on about getting back sovereignty.
Well if this sovereignty lays with parliament then dissolving it to leave with no deal when parliament has voted to the contrary 3 times is a far bigger slight to sovereignty than the EU managed in four decades.
The EU has it's flaws for sure, the common agriculture policy pays subsidies to the queen and her jug eared son to the tune of millions, the second largest recipient is the king of Saudi Arabia FFS because he owns great swathes of land in Britain.
Moggy you said you don't want to stay in the EU because its : A corrupt, self serving, elitist, unaccountable and immoral organisation,
Show me the difference between them and the shower of shite that are the alternative.
Trade deal with Brazil you say ? Great we can get a pound of sugar from there for about 9 pence rather than subsidise sugar beet production in the EU. Guess what though if you think your going to walk into a supermarket and find the prices have dropped due to trade deals you're deluded because Tate and Lyle aren't going to drop the price a penny. Just yesterday France decided to tax the US tech companies and the response was they'll be punished with tariffs. We've been America's bitch for decades and it'll only get worse, You'll swap an agreement with our closest neighbors for one across the Atlantic and it's not going to be any better and could potentially be a hell of a lot worse.

If you have read my posts it should be very clear that I don't support in any way the current state of UK politics. I also don't believe I mentioned anything about a trade deal with Brazil. However, just because our own system of government is utterly broken is not a reason to be a member of an unelected, dishonest, immoral, and even more broken system full of unaccountable freeloaders, hasbeens and failed politicians making personal fortunes. A system that exists principally for the benefit of two of it's members, one that can trace it's origins, as we were talking about colonialism earlier, to France wanting to increase it's colonial power whilst reducing Britains world influence. An organisation, as you wish to push the colonial point, whose most powerful members have pretty shocking colonial histories. The EU is based entirely round a colonial ambition, and it continues to screw people from developing countries in order to further it's own rabid and disgusting greed. It destroys the livelihoods of countless millions, from African fisherman to Caribbean sugar producers, as you chose to attribute a statement to me about Brazil and sugar production that I don't believe I actually made. I don't give a shit about any of the rather muddled stuff you said about sugar, I care about the fact that the EU presents itself as a fine upstanding example or morality, while fucking over poorer countries. The EU is colonialism in a different dress.

It is through the protectionism of the EU that France has managed to continue to sustain inefficient, outdated and undeveloped business and farming practices. Don't like the subsidies for farming The queen gets? Well, talk to the French, because they are their to protect their farming interests.

No, I don't want to stay in the EU for those and other reasons. for the same reasons I want our political system to change. It is within the power of the public to do that, wheras we are powerless to do anything about the EU, except leave.

The EU is a dying force. The EU is a dying economic area. Staying saddled to it is like being handcuffed to the bridge of a sinking ship. While the EU continues to bail out water in a blind panic without realising their bucket has a massive hole in it, the rest of the world is steaming off into the sunset. I don't want to stay handcuffed to the bridge. We've got the keys so I'd like to fuck off to the lifeboats please.

The whole Western Political system is utterly broken, no leaving the EU won't fix that, but it's a step in the right direction.

Nothing you described is peculiar to the current PM and his cabinet, it's endemic throughout the political system. As i said previously, the choice (which incidentally most people didn't actually have the option to vote on) was between a dogshit sandwich and a cowshit omelette, so clearly whichever you choose the taste is going to be unpalatable. Would you rather Hunt was now PM?

You certainly do give the impression of hating pretty much everything about your' country, or are you just one of those people that has to find the negative in everything?

 

[moggy1968]

@Moggy
"Patriotism , the last refuge of a scoundrel"
Or disliking people you haven't met & being proud of things you haven't done.
There is no hand wringing obsession or collective guilt as far as I can see just an honest desire for some reflection on our colonial past.
Any attempt to discuss this provokes a backslash & your response is a typical example.
A similar response happens here in Spain with regard to attempts to remove Fascist symbols from public buildings or exhume the remains of those who were liquidated during the coup.
The guilt thing is a complete red herring , an absurd idea that anyone alive now should feel guilty for the past & no one who criticizes our colonial past has called for this.

Bullshit, utter bullshit
Patriotism is being proud of your country and it's achievements.
It has nothing to do with ignoring the past or pretending it didn't happen.
You appear to be one of that group that appears to lack the understanding of the difference between patriotism and nationalism.
Yet again I find you attributing beliefs and ideals I don't have and haven't suggested.
Once again your just out to provoke a reaction and cause trouble. Yours was the first thread in the resurgence of this topic that resorted to being abusive and offensive to people, yet again, and you've continued in that vein. You appear incapable of maintaining any kind of discussion without it. Has it occurred to you that the backlash you experience is not due to the subject matter, but you?
my personal feelings towards you wouldn't be appropriate on this forum, so I'll keep them to myself for now and deleted much of my response.