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VED rates, new Highway Code rules, victim status for cyclists.....

I started this thread on Victim Status & certain road users paying more VED than others, and I am moaning & beefing..

So will come back to where I started with more clarity. We all need to use the roads, equally.

We are all equal under the law and we used to apply Magna Carta innocent till proven guilty after an adversarial trial. Applying victim Status before any accident takes place is wrong.
'We are all equal under the law'. Not anymore because there are too many examples where certain parties and individuals are more equal than others.
If one pays more then one should be entitled to more. But the system now gives more to its 'darlings', or victims, or electric vehicles at the expense of others (Toyota Landcruiser drivers as an example pay more).

As for over crowding. We live in the most over crowded country in the world importing foreign cultures that do not understand or care about ours law. I see this example daily living in a Northern Town. The more expensive marquee of your car then the better you are, motorbikes and cyclist been of the lower echelons.

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Especially in this cold weather.... The Deafening Knock, Knock, Clang, Clanging,.... Can be heard through out the Land... And by the time you've fiddled with your SCV's ..... Its too Late anyway... :lol: ..... Sorry Karl, But you did leave yourself Open.. :thumbup:
I been wondering how motorbikes figure into this whole rant . In my experience they are always to blame when some ^*^*^*^* pulls out in front of them , cuts them off or causes them to crash and usually suffer severe injury , if they survive .
Rob, you say in an earlier posts about cost and congestion, and attribute that in part to hold ups waiting to pass cyclists riding 2 abreast, in another post you say you and your pals ride 2 abreast, and in another post being less than pedantic with a lady complaining about you riding 2 abreast.?
And 9000 miles ?? Hmmm..
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Good Point Shayne.. Iv had a few near misses and had some serious Prangs.... When i was a young lad i would say 60% of near misses would be my fault, Because im young and unbreakable, Head Down arse up attitude,... But now im old, Im still young at heart and stupid, But iv got the Missus on the back, so i plod about at my 60 yr old Pace, But it makes no difference, You still get people pulling out on you, / cutting you up on roundabouts / Driving on the wrong side of the road is a Big one round Dover/ South East area... I dont think it makes any difference weather im on the Bike or in the Truck.... THEY! are out there, Its just luck of the Draw.... But the concentration level when im on the Bike is exhausting sometimes....... Most Bike accidents are the Biker going too Fast.. If they were going a bit slower, Half the time it could be avoided........... Mindset should be " Everyone else is an Idiot"............... And yes sometimes me :wtf:
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Oh, great. Another Northern racist thread................ Mmmm! I did think, "Oh No, Here we go again"
Whilst this is an exciting "debate" I remind you all to stick to the forum principals. Any further discriminatory, racist etc comments I'll ban the individual and lock the thread.

I have better things to do with my time
Rob, you say in an earlier posts about cost and congestion, and attribute that in part to hold ups waiting to pass cyclists riding 2 abreast, in another post you say you and your pals ride 2 abreast, and in another post being less than pedantic with a lady complaining about you riding 2 abreast.?
And 9000 miles ?? Hmmm
I was being facetious about the time spent waiting behind cyclists. I'm sure someone can quantify that one time they were held up more behind cyclists, than in a queue of traffic turning, or waiting to get onto a rounabout, but I don't believe that is typical. Motor vehicles cause far more congestion. They're also good at overtaking my bicycle and immediately stopping because they can't get round a parked car, or they want to turn left. That's not all, or even the majority of cars of course. In fact I think more people make considerate, space aware overtakes than don't, although it's quite a small majority.

I do ride 2 abreast where it's reasonable to do so. I like chatting to my companion as much on my bike as in my car so why shouldn't I, it's only "fair". That said I don't want to give anyone a chance to dangerous pass me, see earlier post about self-preservation being a great enabler of reponsibility. If a car is held up for more than a few seconds, and the road is wide enough for them to pass us safely when riding single file we will *always* move across. Hold up a car for 20 seconds, honestly it doesn't concern me. It's give and take. I get held up multiple times by cars on every ride, but the roads are shared, and I'm happy to share with them.

Not sure what the hmm is for? You don't believe I ride 9000 miles a year? Or you are concerned I ride 9000 miles 2 abreast? My guess is 10% of that time maximum is 2 abreast, probably way less I also ride the least number of miles of my regular riding friends. A few did 13000+ last year. I ride 10-12 hours a week, if you want to do the maths. It's really not a big number for a keen cyclist.
I've seen the comment "UK is the most overcrowded country in the world" or similar, made here and on other forums, many times.

This is just absolute rubbish, a so called "fact" that keeps getting trotted out by the usual suspects with their usual agendas. (Or people repeating the "fact" that they've heard elsewhere out of ignorance.)

Yes, the UK is relatively crowded and has a high population density. However it's not even in the top 50 countries for population density. Even if you disregard some of the smaller countries/populations and take a population of 1m as minimum, the UK still doesn't make the top 20!

For example, Bangladesh has 3 times the population and 4 times the population density of the UK.

The UK is not even the most "overcrowded" country in Europe - Netherlands and Belgium are both ahead by a significant margin.

Anyway, don't let real facts get in the way of a good narrative - so crack on. :thumbup:
Regards cycling I commute on a bike and apart from a Saturday every 4 weeks you can count on 1 hand how often I drive to work.
Rain, shine, snow, ice the lot I just swap bikes. 50% of the route is cycle path or lane, some of which isn't in a great condition.
I'm around 2 miles each way and takes no time at all, Don't go through red lights, or cut down past cars, I use lights that don't flash or too bright to dazzle, wear hi viz etc ( you can keep the lycra though haha)
Can easily ride at 30mph.
I used to commute regularly 19 miles each way and it was quicker by bike, car was 24 miles of traffic.

I've been knocked off before by a driver on their phone! My insurance (yes a policy for my bikes) dealt with it. Had some near misses too.
I also cycle for leisure. On some narrow roads I'll pull over if cars are struggling to pass, taught my kids the same.

I own cars which I pay VED, insurance, maintenance etc on, one is £30 a year and whatever the 80 is!
Had company cars which cost.

Do I think drivers need to be accountable when it comes to more vulnerable users...YES.... provided the other user hasn't done something to test natural selection.

Do I think cyclists should have some sort of insurance.... YES....above a certain age and its really not that expensive.

As for registration, license etc just wouldn't be possible. Would a 3year old be expected to take a test? Sorry you can have a bike at 17 if you can get a test booked
Roads.... I walk, hike, ride a bike, ex motorcyclist, HGV licence, own several agricultural tractors and implements that crawl along the road slowly, I like the hay baler best as that makes a real Farmer Palmer of me. I pull the longest caravan on a single axle possible (18ft), Ifor Williams 3500kg trailer for ploughing matches, regular bus PSV user and the wife is an equestrian & motor cyclist. I am capable of holding an adversarial debate and playing 'Devils Advocate' for all the above yet I only pay VED for the 'Motor Cars' at varied rates that allows me to use them on the road, plus the tax on the fuel used. However, certain subjects that one faces on a daily basis must no be mentioned or broached, but if the cap fits, then wear it. Like many others, this hat is firmly fixed, comfortable and will not be removed.
Interesting discussion on this on LBC, if anyone's still interested

What's LBC Karl? :grinning:

I, like the more mature people on here have seen the various changes in everything in life from mum using an iron heated on the gas stove for getting the creases out of my Levi jeans and Ben Sherman shirts through to now having WiFi in our houses, and the internet being brought to us country dwellers by microwave systems (better than direct satellite), and of course being a motorist have also watched the changes in how our roads are used and by who uses them.

First I must point out I am 99% against cyclists, there it's been said! Let's look at why.

I took the 'Cycling Proficiency Test' at school, this was a program run by the government, that little piece of paper and a badge showing I had passed meant the world to me and other schoolmates, hand signals, traffic awareness, you name it we were taught it, back then I don't recall there was a need for a crash helmet though? Nowadays I no longer hear of the CPT still being taught, is it?

As a youngster I used to ride with a group of friends, and being aware of the danger of being hit by a vehicle we always rode in single file....and I mean always! As I moved into cars (I had no interest in motorbikes and still don't), so now a driver I saw a cyclist on on the road and overtook them, they were sort of 'there' but never given a second thought but why? All that mattered was you must pass safely and that was it, this was an automatic thing and it was what you did. 99% of them had lights on at night, and often you would see the rear mud guard (remember them) were painted white, they had mirrors, those cyclists were aware of you coming up behind them in your Ford Cortina or whatever was your ride back then long before they heard you, and when they heard or saw you they held their line making it safer for all involved, they were aware as was you, and you always passed them with care, in other words we were all 'road users', we took the care to look out for each other.

So, time moves on and of course there are more cyclists, whether it be to commute to and from a place of work, or just out for exercise and and recreation, but the transition was a steady one and motorists adapted to it, and then there was the rise of cyclists in sport, and then it all changed. Faster bicycles, some with 20+ gears or more, then the cycle races became home grown and no longer restricted to the track, next the fashion of wearing Lycra and the coloured glasses none of this bothered me and then came head protection, at last something useful!

So why did I become to loath cyclists? The reason is simple, audacity!

The riders of cycles pay hundreds and often thousands of their well earned cash for cycles however they, no longer see any reason to have mirrors or lights...pff who needs them, perhaps a bell (a legal requirement in Spain) or some other way of warning a pedestrian that they will be passing them at considerable speed, a warning, now you really are taking the piss!

Riding two (and more) abreast, meant a gentle 'toot' from someone letting them know they wish to pass safely is often met with the internationally recognised hand signal, hey who gives a feck? Ear plugs and listening to music, that's great now I can no longer hear a vehicle let alone see them! Weaving in and out of traffic at speed, often catching your mirrors with their handlebars, hooking the edge of your front bumper with a pedal, jumping red lights, going across pedestrian crossings when people are trying to cross, cutting out in front of you at roundabout and junctions, of course no way of identifying these assholes, the fact that they pay no road tax, and are not insured (a safe bet?), whilst that annoys me, it is what it is. Now the there is a minimum of two metres gap to be given to a cyclist to pass them, so what are we saying vehicle drivers who have had to pass a test are no longer competent, or is it to allow for a cyclist not paying attention to the drain he has just seen so he swerves to miss it?

I say 99% of cyclists, because there is that 1% who I respect, they will be a mix of older more mature adults, perhaps popping into town, to pick up some shopping, or out for exercise, and of course there is the more serious Lycra clad group practicing for one of the local races, they have paid out a small fortune on their rides, and are not going to be weaving through traffic at speed like a pratt for sure, you often come up on them on the bypasses, there is a rule here in Spain to limit a group size, I think anything more than I guess about 8 or 10 cyclists? Anything more and the group are following by an escort vehicle with an orange flashing light warning other road users. If the group is smaller and there is no escort, then the rearmost cyclist will let the riders ahead of him know you are there, and almost as one they go into single file, allowing me and other road users to pass them, a friendly toot of thanks from me, often met by a wave wave as I check my mirror that I am completely clear of them and accelerating very gently away, the diesel 80 exhaling through the exhaust not the cleanest if you put your foot down.

Thankfully Spain is now doing more about 'controlling' cyclists, and making rules more clear not only for them but for motorists as well. A few examples:

A cyclists must give way to traffic on a roundabout as would any another vehicle, but what is not understood is if there are two or more cyclists, the same rule about traffic on a roundabout applies but, if the lead cyclist legally and safely enters a roundabout the following cyclist and any others in a group effectively become one unit, so now the vehicle on the roundabout must stop allowing the cyclists to enter and leave the roundabout as if they were roped together.

Another rule is if a road is not wide enough to allow to two vehicles to pass in either direction then the two metre rule no longer applies, the cyclist must yield to the vehicle and pull off the road if it is safely possible.

A reflector like a working bell is mandatory, and of course wearing earphones/buds and using a mobile phone are not allowed, fines can run into hundreds if caught, and jumping a red light will get you a two hundred euro fine with zero leeway about not seeing it and so forth.

So, to the stupid 99% of cycling assholes (of course not on this forum) you have been warned, will it become 98% versus 2%? I doubt it in my lifetime.

Now where is my coat?


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took the 'Cycling Proficiency Test' at school, this was a program run by the government, that little piece of paper and a badge showing I had passed meant the world to me and other schoolmates, hand signals, traffic awareness, you name it we were taught it, back then I don't recall there was a need for a crash helmet though? Nowadays I no longer hear of the CPT still being taught, is it?

I remember that!
Cycling proficiency is now called Bikeability.

Cyclists in Spain sound terrible. Very different to Wales, where I don't think I've ever felt in danger from another cyclist. I may have been delayed several seconds on some journeys by them though. Loads of nut cases in cars unfortunately, and don't get me started on the big queues of them every time I want to drive through town delaying my journey by many minutes. And they pinch all the parking spots. And pretty sure some of them have their windows up and radio on so they can't even hear me coming. You even see some idiots driving without helmets on even though the incidence of head injuries in cars is well above cycling, for example.
Oh for sure there are many pratts in all sorts of vehicles, I think one of the best was when a cyclist laid his bicycle up against the rear of my competition spec Discovery. It was when he stopped outside the 'Estanco' (Spanish tobacconists) opposite the apartment I was living in at the time. I politely asked him not do it as it was the second time in a week, my car was pretty much in the same place most days, and of course this healthy cyclist had to get his daily packet of cigarettes. He gave me some verbal and rode off.

The next time I caught him was about a week later, and this time I went downstairs and confronted him, it seems the shop owner did not like him laying his bike against the shop window, apparently racing cycles do not have a stand?

This was in the early days when I was not the most patient of people, in particular with those who take the piss. I explained that I would reverse over his cycle the next time he did it. It was a good three weeks later before I selected reverse and accidentally went over his cycle. I got out and know accidents do happen, he asked for my insurance details, I simply said I was not insured so he had better go to the police. I never heard anything more.

Remember....audacity....tut tut.