White smoke, stuttering and loss of power - AGAIN!

[Lorin]

Drove the truck yesterday and it was absolutely fine. Started it this morning and it started perfectly, but when given any throttle it belches white smoke and stutters. To drive it is lumpy and gutless.

I had this same problem back in Sept after Lincomb viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12291 I took it to a diesel pump "specialist" who fixed it - I vaguely remember them saying something about the timing...

I have also had an intermittent fuel leak from the pump cover that reappeared today after having not leaked for several months. Not knowing if the smoke issue and fuel leak might be related I have just had the seal replaced. This has fixed the leak but not the smoke and power loss. However, when the top of the pump was removed it was evident that whoever was last in there (i.e. the "specialists" ) had sealed it with sealant and left a perished seal in place.

I have only driven around 1000 miles since the issue was last 'sorted' and given the indication of their workmanship I am reluctant to take it back to the pump garage. The mechanic who just replaced the seal advised me that the pump likely needs a rebuild

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Should I get the pump rebuilt or is there anything else that it could be?

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

You don't drive it much do you, only 1000 miles October to July I would start with all the other checks first and not assume it is related to the previous problem - it could be but it may not be. It's unlikely the tank pickup has fouled in that time, but you could have an air leak, or mice nesting in the air filter If it really does seem like the pump can you take it off and send it away to RVS to be rebuilt?

 

[Lorin]

You don't drive it much do you, only 1000 miles October to July I would start with all the other checks first and not assume it is related to the previous problem - it could be but it may not be. It's unlikely the tank pickup has fouled in that time, but you could have an air leak, or mice nesting in the air filter If it really does seem like the pump can you take it off and send it away to RVS to be rebuilt?

Other than Lincomb earlier this year I haven't driven any more than locally to keep it running. I'd just booked the first of two camping holidays in the truck leaving at the end of the month and now this has happened Air filter is all clear. I've just asked the garage to feed fuel directly into the pump to rule out an air leak in the fuel line - said they'd do it tomorrow first thing. Cheers Jon

 

[Beau]

Do the 80 series Pumps have any internal Filters.

I know the 1KZT-E engines do... If so if would be worth taking it out and giving them a clean.

If you are having the same problem as previously then it may well be the seal. It could be loosing pressure and not pumping the fuel to the injectors as it should.

 

[Chris]

Sounds a bit like water in there.


Chris

 

[clivehorridge]

...but when given any throttle it belches white smoke and stutters...I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Should I get the pump rebuilt or is there anything else that it could be?

I don't want to lead you off your 'pump rebuild' theory which may well be your problem. However, you don't seem too impressed with your 'specialist' and his diagnosis.

I had a similar problem, the very dense white smoke which in my case always came after pulling away from standstill, and it took a good few miles to eventually clear until the next set of lights, if you can imagine the scenario.

After a lot of 'pump' investigations and other time wasters, the problem was eventually located in the brake master cylinder servo vacuum chamber, of all places. The seals in the brake master cylinder were leaking brake fluid into the diaphragm, and when the level reached the vacuum pipe (there was about half a liter of fluid in there ), brake fluid was being sucked directly into the intake manifold, thus creating the belching white smoke and serious misfire.

It took a lot of finding this one, but after stopping at traffic lights, foot on the brake (lazy driving), then accelerating from standstill, enough brake fluid had entered the diphragm to cause the white smoke symptoms.

You did ask 'is there anything else it could be' ... this is a possible maybe. At least it was cheap for me to fix, a replacement seal kit for the master cylinder was much cheaper than the pump rebuild!

Worth a check I suppose.

Good luck

 

[Lorin]

I had a similar problem, the very dense white smoke which in my case always came after pulling away from standstill, and it took a good few miles to eventually clear until the next set of lights, if you can imagine the scenario.

Cheers Clive, everything worth a check as you say. Just checked the brake fluid and it's at the same level it's been since a fluid change last year so it can't be that.

Sounds a bit like water in there.

First thing I checked was the coolant level and again no sign of any loss. I did however play in some deep water the day before but symptoms did not appear until the truck had been sat for a night If there is water in the fuel then feeding clean diesel to the pump should clear the smoke so I'll wait the outcome of tomorrows test.

Cheers for the suggestions

 

[roscoFJ73]

D
I have only driven around 1000 miles since the issue was last 'sorted' and given the indication of their workmanship I am reluctant to take it back to the pump garage. The mechanic who just replaced the seal advised me that the pump likely needs a rebuild

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Should I get the pump rebuilt or is there anything else that it could be?

How did he arrive at the opinion it needs a rebuild? When pumps wear out around the plunger and distributor head,it comes on slowly.
Its usually fine until it warms up and then the expansion allows the components to lose pressure.
To know for certain they are usually removed from the vehicle and the pump is bench tested to replicate being on the engine and the fuel pressure in each injector line is tested with a gauge.

Other parts in the pump that wear out are the bearings on the shaft and the timer piston.When the timer piston wears it can also wear out the housing that surrounds it

Other things I would check is the fuel pick up in the tank.It has a piece of fine gauze over it.Over the years they get clogged up with all the gunk that comes in with your fuel and obstruct the fuel supply.

There is also a piece of fine mesh under the inlet where the fuel enters the fuel pump,this can also get clogged up and obstruct the fuel.
If it does come down to a rebuild,someone who knows what they are doing should be able to pinpoint to some extent the names of the components that need replacing.

How many klms on the engine and pump? Once they get up around 350000klms,the pump is on borrowed time.
The white smoke and stuttering is often the sign of a worn out roller ring inside the pump,major rebuild.

 

[Lorin]

How did he arrive at the opinion it needs a rebuild? When pumps wear out around the plunger and distributor head,it comes on slowly.
Its usually fine until it warms up and then the expansion allows the components to lose pressure.
To know for certain they are usually removed from the vehicle and the pump is bench tested to replicate being on the engine and the fuel pressure in each injector line is tested with a gauge.

Other parts in the pump that wear out are the bearings on the shaft and the timer piston.When the timer piston wears it can also wear out the housing that surrounds it

Other things I would check is the fuel pick up in the tank.It has a piece of fine gauze over it.Over the years they get clogged up with all the gunk that comes in with your fuel and obstruct the fuel supply.

There is also a piece of fine mesh under the inlet where the fuel enters the fuel pump,this can also get clogged up and obstruct the fuel.
If it does come down to a rebuild,someone who knows what they are doing should be able to pinpoint to some extent the names of the components that need replacing.

How many klms on the engine and pump? Once they get up around 350000klms,the pump is on borrowed time.

I phoned up RVS (pump specialists - with a good reputation) this morning and explained my symptoms. First thing he said was "white smoke is timing". He went on to say that in his opinon it is very unlikley to be the pump He advised that I proceed as planned and rule out any air leaks/blockages in the fuel line and then check the timing.

 

[Lorin]

Just had the timing checked and apparently it is spot on. Fed clean diesel directly to the pump and the symptoms are the same, lumpy to rev and lots of white smoke I guess that rules out any fuel line/pick-up or air leak problems.

So called RVS back - really helpful - advised me that there is occasionally a small filter in the pump where the fuel line is connected via a banjo bolt at the front of the pump and to check that. He also said if that is clear, before pulling the pump off he would advise getting a second opinion on the timing as everything points to that. Otherwise, it's a case of sending the pump off to be checked.

 

[roscoFJ73]

If RVS have a good reputation,why does he need a 2nd opinion on the timing? You would save money by going to someone who can do the whole job inhouse.
The filter in the pump is the piece of mesh I mentioned in the other post.
Has anyone checked the pump alignment markets on the timing gear cover?

 

[Lorin]

If RVS have a good reputation,why does he need a 2nd opinion on the timing? You would save money by going to someone who can do the whole job inhouse.
The filter in the pump is the piece of mesh I mentioned in the other post.
Has anyone checked the pump alignment markets on the timing gear cover?

RVS have been giving me advice over the phone about things to check. The truck is with a local mechanic (a Hilux specialist) as it was only meant to have a suspension part changed but then developed the white smoke issue. RVS comment about re-checking the timing was made because I stated that the timing was checked to the best of the mechanics ability and appears to be fine - all the timing marks lined up. RVS advised that I be absolutely certain to have ruled out any other possible causes before I consider removing the pump and sending to them as they have had a quite a few pumps sent in for reconditioning that when tested were absolutely fine.

The mechanic is simply carrying out all the tests that I am directing him to do based on the advice I am getting from suggestions on here, RVS and the FSM.

The FSM also states that white smoke is a symptom of improper injection timing.

So far we have ruled out the possibility of a fuel starvation, a blockage in the pump or an air leak in the fuel line. There is no coolant loss and the smoke does not smell of coolant. The turbo appears to be okay - spins freely with no sign of excess oil. The injectors all appear to be okay - they were reconditioned 12 months ago. And the timing marks line up.

The only other thing I've seen suggested is to get the compression tested. The mechanic is at a loss and I do not know what to do next

 

[Chris]

Lorin, if the timing marks for the pump all line up and look right, is it worth giving it a small turn either way to see if it makes a difference? Easy to put it back. Just because the marks line up doesn't mean in it's the right place after nearly 20 years.

Clutching at straws for yoy.

Chris

 

[Lorin]

Lorin, if the timing marks for the pump all line up and look right, is it worth giving it a small turn either way to see if it makes a difference? Easy to put it back. Just because the marks line up doesn't mean in it's the right place after nearly 20 years.

Clutching at straws for yoy.

Chris

Chris you may be right, Julian V said the same about the marks...

Following on from my earlier post the mechanic has posted up a clip of the truck smoking and also discovered that the bottom pully doesn't look right - see video below. He is also going to further investigate whether it could be the turbo seals before I take the truck to a local pump specialist to investigate the timing hypothesis further...

Video of smoke and dodgy pully
[youtube:2zg2chum]JO6BVAUb_4c[/youtube:2zg2chum]

{CP: Video changed on request}

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

On the pulley, he didn't hold on it long enough to be sure but that looked pretty normal, the sides are not concentric so it looks like it wobbles. It's hard to see the central toothed part properly from that angle making it hard to be sure but mine looks a lot like that at 172k and is fine

 

[Lorin]

On the pulley, he didn't hold on it long enough to be sure but that looked pretty normal, the sides are not concentric so it looks like it wobbles. It's hard to see the central toothed part properly from that angle making it hard to be sure but mine looks a lot like that at 172k and is fine

Cheers Jon

 

[Ecoman]

I have just been reading about your truck on Hilux Pickup Owners Club website as Ryan is a fellow Moderator on there. By the look of the concentric rotation of the IP pulley its possible there could be damage to the shaft which is throwing out the timing. I would suggest getting the pump looked at by a specialist or get a replacement pump from a breakers. I believe Karl Webster may have some in stock as I spoke with him some time back about one but my issue turned out to be something minor and an easy fix.

 

[frank rabbets]

Hi Lorrin; Sorry to read your trouble but have a few straws but easy.

Get your mechanic to do the following;

1. Check the injector spill pipe is not blocked. It exits the cylinder head on the front RHS facing the car and there is a small rubber section which can be removed and the spill pipe run into a container so the flow is open. The pipe remaining on the engine must be sealed whilst doing this.

2. Remove the turbo pipe and see if there is oil in there pointing to a leaking turbo seal.

3. Check the engine breather pipe is clear together with the filter.

Is she using engine oil?

Regarding the video, that part of the pulley which the belt is running on appears to be running true.

Frank

 

[Lorin]

Hi Lorrin; Sorry to read your trouble but have a few straws but easy.

Get your mechanic to do the following;

1. Check the injector spill pipe is not blocked. It exits the cylinder head on the front RHS facing the car and there is a small rubber section which can be removed and the spill pipe run into a container so the flow is open. The pipe remaining on the engine must be sealed whilst doing this.

2. Remove the turbo pipe and see if there is oil in there pointing to a leaking turbo seal.

3. Check the engine breather pipe is clear together with the filter.

Is she using engine oil?

Regarding the video, that part of the pulley which the belt is running on appears to be running true.

Frank

Cheers Frank, all done and all clear.

Following the advice of Chris and Julian V, the mechanic also tried manually adjusting the timing by a small increment. Apparently one way made it worse and one way did solve the smoke issue but when driven it had no power.

I think we have now ruled out pretty much everything except the pump/timing. Thanks to everyone for all the tips and advice. Truck is now off to a pump specialist.

 

[frank rabbets]

Hi Lorrin

I've had another listen to the video. I would think you have sticking injectors. Pump timing would have to be a mile out to have all that smoke. Under acceleration it sounds worse on some cylinders than others so I would have the injectors tested. I do not think a sticking injector would show on a crank speed compression test. Cheaper than going straight for the pump.

Frank