Any thoughts on laboured starting

[Chris]

FRANKENSTARTER

Well it gives me no pleasure in saying I was right, but I was right. I pulled the starter tonight and turned the key with it all still wired up. Batteries had full cycle on the CTEK charger. It struggled to turn with no load on it. Sounded awful. So onto the bench it went. I took the motor out first and found the nose bearing had collapsed completely. Some balls were missing from the race and had been replaced by strips of sharp metal. Then I pulled the gear housing. The 1st bearing was rough and the actual drive shaft was loppy too. So ........ a quick rummage in the cave and with a combination of stater, housing, solenoid, brushes gears and housings, I put together the beast. I have had two 80 series in 3 years roughly and this is technically the 6th starter motor I have gone through. At least this one was free. All cleaned, greased and fondled. Bolted in and wired up just on the two hour mark. Barely touched the key and whoomph! Slick as you like. When I said it was laboured starting, I really did mean laboured. It just sounded like the mechanism was jammed. The pinion on the drive was not turning backwards like it should either.

Thanks one and all for the suggestions, but these monsters' electrics are so good that I tend to consider the mechanical failure options first. This was a Milner starter and I shall be having words with them. It looked really nicely made, but for it to fall apart inside after such a short time is poor. I know some of you have the original on there still, after nearly 20 years.

Right, on to the other buggered bits.

Chris

 

[Gary820]

Result. One down loads to go?!

 

[clivehorridge]

Good diagnosis Chris!

Shame these parts can't be trusted. I bought a recon for my 80 and it sounds much rougher than the original 18 yr old unit. The bendix (or equivalent) is very rattly as it returns after starting.

Still, it works every time!

 

[Shayne]

This thread tells me toyota is the only place to get a new starter if i ever need one , 18 years without problems has gotta be worth a few quid more .

 

[silvercruiser]

Glad you got it sorted Chris, i hope the frankenstarter holds up for a while.

 

[Chris]

Me too.

Shayne, some of those that have failed have been Toyota ones. Alternators and starters are my total nemesis. And the only part on the car that you don't actually twiddle with. Go figure?

Still cannot see where the crap gets in. Thought about trying to seal it, but there aren't any real gaps!

 

[Shayne]

Yeah but were the toyota ones refurbished , and did they use genuine parts when they did it ? I wouldn't seal a hole even if i could find one as i would guess it's purpose was to allow heat to escape . I did however find out something interesting while looking into your problem last night . The bearings are hermetically sealed at the factory on new starters , i could be wrong but it seems very unlikely to me anyone selling recon starters has the equipment necessary to make sure the replacement bearings are airtight .

Given the airtight factory spec cannot be achieved perhaps alternative bearings would do a better job if you could find something to fit . Even a pushbike wheel bearing is designed to withstand outside influences such as water , dust and mud but an airtight bearing doesn't need that kind of strength if you get what i mean .

 

[Chris]

Dunno where they got that from. The one I stripped for parts was genuine first gen Toyota. The bearings were just bearings. Hermetically sealed? Sounds like crap to me. There are several bearings in there none of which are sealed. Covered maybe, but not sealed. The Milner starter wasn't recon it was new manufacture. A copy part. All the bearings is simply pushed onto the main shafts. Nothing clever. They looked just like the ones in the gen starter that I had.


Err heat escaping out of a hole? Hmm don't think so Shayne. There is one vent on there as a drain hole, but it has a one way valve in it. Thing is it's not in the place where the crud collects.


Think this is duff frankly. Airtight bearings? Nah. This is off a Landcruiser not a space shuttle.

Anyway all sorted. Clag and a collapsed bearing. End of.

 

[Shayne]

Perhaps the casing is vacuum sealed and that's why new units last and repaired or copy ones don't . Nevermind glad your sorted .

 

[Chris Green90]

I think I remember reading that parts of the toyota factory are sealed. Propper clean room type stuff.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Towpack]

A good diagnosis and a cheap fix there Chris seeing as how you had the parts needed in your 'collection'. Bit annoying though to say the least on the early demise of the pattern item from Milners.
I too don't buy the hermetically sealed theory. Other than the O rings on the end cover bolts there seems to be little else in the way of sealing and vacuum sealing would require seals of far greater integrity. As for heat dissipation, surely this would be handled by finning on the casing or some other form of heat sink if required, not a hole in the case!

 

[Shayne]

I personally would "guess" the holes were for heat to escape , perhaps i should have said - i would guess they were there for a reason .

 

[Chris]

There AREN'T any holes. That the whole flipping point. Where does the shite get in - through the holes that aren't there of course.

Given that these start first touch, I don't know where the heat would come from either. It's a 20 year old Land Cruiser.

We need to forget the whole sealed thing, it's complete tosh I'm afraid. They certainly neglect to mention it in the factory service manual. I have to wonder about ingress in through what Clive referred to as the Bendix drive. It isn't a Bendix exactly but it does have an inertia throw mechanism. The shaft isn't that tight a fit in the front housing and I suppose it could allow grot in. BUT as the starter ring where the pinion engages is very much tucked up in the bell housing you have to wonder how much crap could ever get up there in the first place. Now, my last thought on this is that the plunger for the solenoid is pretty fierce and you can hear it move (if the truck doesn't start when the motor is bust in the unit like I have experienced many times) This is essentially a piston. it might be that any muck lurking around after off roading actually get slurped up even through small gaps when you start the truck.It doesn't get blown out again, because the air goes out through the one way vent. The track of gunge actually follows the path that the air would take.

Know what? I actually think that really might be the case. Made me think there Shayne. Hmmm

 

[frank rabbets]

Chris

You consider suspects in the following order of priority:-

1. Milner
2. Mechanical
3. Electrical

You never told us about number one suspect.

Believe me I've been there, once, NEVER again whatsoever.

Frank

 

[frank rabbets]

Hot engine, drive into dilute soup/water, motor cools and sucks water up through little rubber pipe on bottom, then drains out on land but leaves crud behind. The pipes are designed as one way valves, out but not in, but when they are dirty they fail.

Frank

 

[Chris]

Hi Frank I did mention the Miler suspect. Honest.

But when your starter goes in the middle of town and Milner are 15 mins away what do you do? In stock and Mrs can fetch one.

Not sure I buy the hot engine theory. The dirt - as I have said is NOT in the are where the drain tube is. That and the tube are clean. Why would the motor be hot? Or hotter than anything else around which isn't full of crud. Nope, I am really thinking that this could well be something to do with the plunger. That would make total sense. The crud is in exactly the area where it would be drawn in by the piston effect, but no further. The air could get past the piston but not most of the mud. You see, oddly when I have been wading etc there are a couple of bits of the engine which seem to be shielded to a degree. You can see the tide mark. The starter is one of those weirdly. So I don't think that it's dirt getting in generally through the housing. It's most particularly coming in through the nose. It's very fine and mashed up. Let's be honest, whilst these are rugged vehicles, the starters and alternators etc where not designed to be mistreated like this. The fact that they do go on so long is great, but to keep dunking them is not good I know. If I can find a way to perhaps vent the casing in the right place it might make a difference. A little breather perhaps that doesn't all the vacuum to develop as the plunger returns?

I can get one off and back on in under 30 mins now so I guess it's like brakes. Off and clean each time. But it's a pain.

 

[karl webster]

I know you use your truck a lot more than my green one Chris. As you know, I like the mud and water.

I've never had an issue with mine.

My truck sits for ages before I use it again.

 

[Chris]

I know Karl. That's what makes it so perplexing. Although I did notice last night that the plastic cover under the starter ring was missing. Know the one I mean? It pushes into the front of the transmission case.

Have you got one?

 

[frank rabbets]

Chris the starter will be hot because it is bolted to a hot engine. When driven into cold water the consequent vacuum may suck water in. I've just had my motor apart and there was crud caused by breakdown of the contacts but it was copper coloured and a bit obvious.

This sealed bearing topic needs more discussion. The starter should have sealed ones so the grease is held inside the bearing.

Good quality sealed bearings will not let in outside contamination. If you pressurise them from outside the seals become airtight as in an oilseal so there is some truth in Shaynes . Even in the gearbox they are used even though the bearings are running immersed in oil.

Frank

 

[clivehorridge]

On the subject of seals and the like in general terms, I'm not convinced that anything is sealed in the true sense.

IMO, a rolled hollow section of steel with the ends welded up, even if claimed to be done by robots in a vacuum, will rust from the inside out. Hence car manufacturers giving up on this (or accepting the consequences of physics) and providing vents in chassis and sill members to allow air circulation to dissipate inevitable condensation.

Bearings the same, they may be sealed in that there are grease, dust and/or oil seals to reduce the propensity of ingress, but they should not claim to be sealed in an hermetic sense.

I have a wristwatch which claims to be water resistant to 50 meters depth. It's not waterproof. What is? So that's why they go no further than water resistant.

Space hardware may be extremely well and better sealed than a Toyota starter motor, but even then, there must be a degree of limitation to their own claims of what is sealed and what is not.

Theres no such thing as absolute in this world, everything is mortal.

Milners unit RIP, long live FRANKENSTARTER!