Any thoughts on laboured starting

[Chris]

Hi Frank I am familiar with the physics of sudden cooling and reduction in pressure and the fact that the starter receives heat from the engine, but all this plunging into cold water etc etc, I wish I got chance to do that. I feel that you are not perhaps seeing things from the perspective of my truck in my world here. I cannot see how / why cooling the starter would actually draw muck in where it does. Cooling something that is essentially open at the end wouldn't act like that in my view especially as there is a vent. My point is that with the solenoid acting as a piston there is a very local and sudden potential for pressure changes in exactly the area where the dirt is.

Like Clive, I don't buy the truly sealed bearing idea either. The bearings have a push fit shroud on them, but to think that they are much more than dust shield is a bit fanciful if I am honest. Dirt and grit perhaps and to retain the grease, but more than that is doubtful I think. I perhaps need to think where I could put a breather and sit back and wait, eh?

 

[Shayne]

Obviously i am talking blind having never actually seen the inside of a starter but as i've said before discussion often prompts ideas in more educated minds . The valve it seems to me cannot be one way (unless it vents somewhere else) because if it was it would simply inflate the starter until it exploded or burst the seals to be less dramatic . Regardless of this Chris says the starter is above the tide mark and so it seems more likely to me the ingress is in fact accumulated dust rather than wet mud . How about simply fitting a dust filter over the valve , would that be possible ?

 

[clivehorridge]

One thing to consider, did anyone see the photos Ben took of his clutch when he renewed it recently? His bell-housing, clutch and everything in there (which must have included his starter throw sprocket) was covered in Lincomb sand, even grass and other debris collected over the years.

Just food for thought...

 

[mrdelmonti]

No idea how the dirt is getting in but on one of my old landrovers I kept eating starters until I drilled 2 holes in the casing, 1 in the top, 1 in the bottom, I could then run fresh water through it after a dunking, never had a problem after that.

 

[frank rabbets]

Hi Clive

I assume that your landcruiser is reasonably oiltight and your oil seals are working. Well the Toyota sealed bearings have the same type of seals to some of their bearings so if you are standing inside the bearing nothing can get in from the outside.

Frank

 

[frank rabbets]

Chris

In my world my original starter has done 135,000 miles and the only failure has been contacts. Every other internal and external part is in perfect condition.

My bell housing interior is very clean however. Could your starter be inhaling dust from your bell housing, especially if you have been slipping the clutch.

Frank

 

[Chris]

Shayne, at least your posts give me a smile. I think you need to see a starter. We are talking about a little rubber drain pipe with a flap in it like the thing you blow through on a kids swimming armband. There are no massive pressure in there that are going to cause a casting weighing about 5 kilos to explode.

Once more - the starter is not sealed. it just doesn't have any holes in it. There are seams, bolt holes etc but no open holes. My conjecture is that if there is moisture etc at the front of the starter (quite likely) when the solenoid plunges in, this dirt is in free air and not really disturbed. But, behind the plunger on the other side, the pressure has the potential to drop and suck in dirt. But it doesn't seem to because the vent at that end is one way and dirt can't get in. Now when the plunger returns (all of this in half a second) I think there is a good chance that it's like a sharp intake of breath and coupled with the very slightly lower pressure in the solenoid casing the dirt is pulled in. As the little valve is set to vent out the air in the solenoid casing is pushed out down the tube allowing the fresh dirt to come in. It's just a theory and my not be quite there but it would certainly explain why the dirt comes in where it does. But this is not a sealed pressure vessel , nor are the components running in a vacuum etc. There is a very powerful plunger which could act as a piston drawing in dirt in small quantities

Frank - I omitted to say that the Miler starter did have totally open bearings rather than the shielded, shrouded or sealed type what ever we decide to call them. They look very easily replaceable and I guess I could get some new ones and stick them on to be a stand by.

 

[Chris]

Never tried slipping the clutch on an auto Frank, But I'll try anything once. The bell housing though is precisely where I am saying that the dirt is coming in. Bell housing or transmission casing call it what you like. TC housing perhaps. There is a scoop under there which could hoover up mud and crud very easily and it's in direct line with the starter ring isn't it. Any slurp that the starter motor does will be lined up with filth in there. Yours is clean because you don't drive it into ditches full of mud mate.

 

[Shayne]

I'm sure all of us who are keen to learn would appreciate a few pics Chris ? I'm still thinking if your suction diagnosis is correct then why not add an air filter from a chainsaw or something similar into the mix . Of course this may not be physically possible but maybe a vacuum cleaner filter could be taped over the vent ?

 

[AndycruiserguyLomas]

FFS!!! we are going to have a post mortem on the post mortem soon.

Andy

 

[Chris]

I know what you are saying Shayne, but as I keep trying to say, the dirt isn't coming IN thorough the vent, the air goes OUT of the vent. The dirt is being pulled in the front end from the starter pinion. What I think I need to do is add a vent somewhere else with a tube like you have on your diff breather so that when the plunger moves, it doesn't create that suction force. There wouldn't be anything to really see in a picture. It's a starter motor.

I shall look at this and when I have an idea I shall come back. It shouldn't be tricky really.

 

[Ben]

The big problem here is pay n play sites and bog holes!

But if thats what you enjoy doing then go for it, but it does cause a lot of damage to things like starter motors.

On a more positive note....................

Could you do what I'm planning on doing with my winch where by a small cheap compressor will blow air into my winch to create pressure inside it before/during water crossings to keep the water out.

I know people have been doing that with distributors on petrol engines for years, maybe it would work on a starter motor.

One thing to consider, did anyone see the photos Ben took of his clutch when he renewed it recently? His bell-housing, clutch and everything in there (which must have included his starter throw sprocket) was covered in Lincomb sand, even grass and other debris collected over the years.

Just food for thought...

Collected over a year!

 

[Yotomotor]

I know this isn't a starter but this winch motor was sealed, and you can see what happens when it is dunked in mud a few times and general grubby conditions

 

[clivehorridge]

Hi Clive

I assume that your landcruiser is reasonably oiltight and your oil seals are working. Well the Toyota sealed bearings have the same type of seals to some of their bearings so if you are standing inside the bearing nothing can get in from the outside.

Frank

Hi Frank, I'm with you and I don't deny what you're saying. I think the point of this discussion should be that ingress is getting into the body of the starter motor somehow. Chris has observed that there are no (significant) openings in the motor casing and the obvious one has a form of non-return valve reducing the chances of water getting into the body that way. IMO that tube is more of an airway simply to allow condensation to evaporate away as opposed to staying in the casing. It's not there as a drain to let out half a liter of water after a river crossing, although it may perform quite well under those conditions.

The other way crud could get in is as Chris has described, that's via the bell-housing and my recollection of Ben's photos would support the possibility of this.

The facts are that stuff has got into Chris' motor. How? That seems to be the question, and if measures can be taken to reduce or eliminate it.

I'm afraid I openly admit to avoiding dunking my bits into mud slurry, specifically to avoid this situation. Starters and alternators are expensive, I can only get Mr T parts here and even my recon starter cost me €350. I also don't have a snorkel for the same reasons. Here there's less water than in the UK anyway, so I'm not missing out on much!

Cheers

 

[Shayne]

Clive i'm the first to admit i don't know what i'm talking about because i don't actually have a picture in my head of the drain being discussed , buuuuut what would happen if the drain pipe were extended and coiled , i'm thinking condensation would still weep out as intended but when the truck was driven into deep water pushing water up the pipe it might pressurize the starter casing just enough to prevent the water actually filling the pipe or reaching the starter ?

 

[clivehorridge]

Clive i'm the first to admit i don't know what i'm talking about because i don't actually have a picture in my head of the drain being discussed , buuuuut what would happen if the drain pipe were extended and coiled , i'm thinking condensation would still weep out as intended but when the truck was driven into deep water pushing water up the pipe it might pressurize the starter casing just enough to prevent the water actually filling the pipe or reaching the starter ?

I don't have much advantage on you Shayne, but I have seen the pipe Chris has described, so I do have a picture in my mind. Your idea may work, but it's a bit hit and miss.

I favour Ben's idea of positively pressurizing air through the motor prior to entering the water/mud-hole.

I also like Mrdelmonte's idea of drilling an in and out and flushing the motor after a dunking.

Or like me, if in doubt, leave it out!

 

[Chris]

FFS It's not going up the God-dammed pipe. How many more times! There isn't anything in there where the pipe is. Jeez. The muck is in the gear housing at the other end of the unit. All that's going through the tiny little rubber tube is air. I am not wading deep enough or long enough for this to be water simply being pushed in. Christ it's on a 5 inch suspension lift. I don't even need a snorkel it's that high.

Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe Water is not going up the pipe

Did I mention that Water is not going up the pipe?

 

[stumog]

just picked up this thread.
chris do you think the little pipe could ba acting like a snorkle by any chance.
stu

 

[frank rabbets]

If the starter had sealed bearings, as it should have done, crud would not have destroyed them. Wheel bearing seals are keeping out crud, even on normal rods, all the time.

Frank

 

[Chris]

Probably Frank, but this still doesn't deal with the amount of crap in there. It was causing wear in the drive shaft too. That would lead to an even greater opportunity for more crud to get in. Bearing failure was the culprit no doubt, but there's more to it than that. I shall let Milner know about the poor bearings.

Chris