Big end bearings

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Guest

Guest
Hi guys
Is 'crankshaft bearings' and 'big end bearings' the same thing?
I visit Toyota today and the mechanic browse through some Toy bible
and told me that to replace crankshaft bearings needs 17.7 hours of
labour + parts +VAT. That's quite shocking if you ask me -an hour of
labour at toyota is 80& !!!!!!
Lubo
hdj80-96mod
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Lubo
The crankshaft bearings are what the crankshaft sit in inside the block. Not
the same as big end bearings.
To change the crank bearings the whole engine needs to be dismantled but
even so I would have thought 18 hours to be excessive.
Would it not be cheaper to buy a reconditioned engine?
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Lubomir Kolev
Sent: 05 July 2006 13:36
To: LandCruiser forum
Subject: [ELCO] Big end bearings
Hi guys
Is 'crankshaft bearings' and 'big end bearings' the same thing?
I visit Toyota today and the mechanic browse through some Toy bible
and told me that to replace crankshaft bearings needs 17.7 hours of
labour + parts +VAT. That's quite shocking if you ask me -an hour of
labour at toyota is 80& !!!!!!
Lubo
hdj80-96mod
 
G

Guest

Guest
Lubo.
The cranshaft contains two sets of bearings.
The first set we can call the" main" bearings. This is what the
crankshaft is supported by in the engine block. If we draw an imaginary
line through the rotating axis of the crank we will pass through all the
main bearing journals.
The second set of bearings are the famous - "big end" bearings. These
are offset from the centre line of the crank. They are located on the
journals of the crank that each of the connecting rods fit onto.
Have a think about how each operates and the loadings on each.
The main bearings merely have the crank rotating in them while the bg
ends have the crank roting plus the crank is accelerating / decelerating
every time it goes up and down the bore.
Do a quick google for more info.
Gareth.
 
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Guest

Guest
Peter,
No, it would not. You don't need to dismantle the whole engine, only
remove the oil pan and the bearing rack. Hardly job worth the price
of anew engine.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 7/5/06, Peter Browning <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
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Guest

Guest
On Jul 5, 2006, at 3:56 PM, Gareth Jones wrote:
> The second set of bearings are the famous - "big end" bearings
that's what I was talking about and if Roman is right ( ;-)))) ) then
the job won't be so much but it is not so easy to explain to the
chief mechanick at toyota -he just keep on answer that 'those type
of cars were not imported here(Norway)
Lubo
 
G

Guest

Guest
Lubo,
Find another mechanic ;-)
All engines have big end bearings and it doesn't take years of
training with Toyota to know how to change them.
The only thing to remember is that you will need information to select
the bearing thickness.
To do that you will have to know some numbers stamped on the engine parts:
cylinder block and crankshaft. Using these numbers your mechanic can
order the appropriate bearings. The trouble is he wont be able to do
that before looking inside the engine, so the job wil take longer.
Speak to Maarten Verschure of All American Imports in NL (
[Email address removed] ) and get more advice. He can send the parts to
you even next day.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 7/5/06, Lubomir Kolev <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Ooops, sorry. I bow to the greater knowledge.
I assumed that main bearings must be engine out and full stripdown.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Roman
Sent: 05 July 2006 14:03
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Big end bearings
Peter,
No, it would not. You don't need to dismantle the whole engine, only
remove the oil pan and the bearing rack. Hardly job worth the price
of anew engine.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 7/5/06, Peter Browning <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Not
On
 
G

Guest

Guest
Oh knowledgeable ones...
Probably a stupid question, but if you leave the crankshaft in place how
do you get upper bearing shells (between shaft and block) out for
renewal?
Christopher Bell
| -----Original Message-----
| From: [Email address removed]
| [mailto:[Email address removed]] On Behalf Of Peter Browning
| Sent: 05 July 2006 16:05
| To: [Email address removed]
| Subject: RE: [ELCO] Big end bearings
|
| Ooops, sorry. I bow to the greater knowledge.
|
| I assumed that main bearings must be engine out and full stripdown.
|
| Pete
____________________________________________________________
Electronic mail messages entering and leaving Arup business
systems are scanned for acceptability of content and viruses
 
G

Guest

Guest
On 7/5/06, Christopher Bell <[Email address removed]> wrote:
Christopher,
Carefully!!!
The upper half will slide round the cranksaft.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Guys
All this talk about big end bearings brings back very expensive bad
memories.
Its a lot cheaper to get them done before they give trouble and cost an arm
and a leg or was that two legs.
I enquired a good while back and was told it would take about four hours and
the BEBs are about 60 euro each if I remember right. Of course this was
after the fact, but with intentions of not being caught a second time as
body parts are hard to sell to Toyota in lue of money owed. Anyway my point
is it can be done in that time as this is what Toyota told me and they dont
skimp on their time charts.
This brings up another question of mine .
If the crank (I think) was shaved down a bit and then new BEBs where put in
then when I get new BEBS again how do I know what size to get or does it
matter. Sorry I dont know the techical name for what was done to the shaft
but know it was reduced by a very tiny small amount.
cheers
john unlucky 92 HDJ 80 1HDT
 
G

Guest

Guest
Chris - sorry about that.
On the assumption that each bearing half is single tanged simply push
the non tanged end and it will slide out from between the block and the
crank.
To fit new - feed in the non tanged end first then line up the tang
with the receiver and - job done. Remove only one upper shell half at a
time to ensure clearance.
My assumption may be wrong - in which case I am talking through my
exhaust.
Regards Gareth.
 
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Guest

Guest
Gareth
I sincerely hope it is 3" and stainless steel...
Jeremy
On 5/7/06 16:31, "Gareth Jones" <[Email address removed]> wrote:
 
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Guest

Guest
Hi Guy's,
Confusion seems to really raining on this topic. Big end shells can be
replaced in place in the vehicle easily mains can not.
To replace the big ends remove the sump and read off the numbers stamped
on both the conrods and the crankshaft, then consult the workshop manual
to work out what size you need (the following is Maartens tip) then get
one shell size thicker this tightens the clearance 1-2 tenth's of a thou
to allow for a little wear and bedding in of the crank. To actually
replace them undo one conrod cap at a time and push the rod up the bore
a little way and flick out the old shells and refit the new (I like to
for my piece of mind and the little bit of extra time involved to
plastigauge each journal to check the clearance) shells and tighten the
caps to spec and then move onto the next one. Turning the crank ot be at
the bottom for easiest access.
The mains are a whole different story as the toyota has a one piece main
brg cradle (what you would expect on a purpose built race motor not a
old plodder truck motor) which dramatically enhances the stiffness of
the block you can't remove individual main brg caps to replace the
bearings. If it had individual main caps you could potentially (but
some engines attach the front and rear main seal retainers to the front
and rear main brgs preventing there removal) remove them one at a time
and slide the top shell around the crank in place, but not on the cruiser.
To replace mains remove engine from car remove front timing gear
housings, oil pump housing and rear main seal retainer from rear of
block, so that these components are not bridging across the main brg
cradle and the block, remove the main brg cradle. Now you can replace
the main brg's using the above method or remove all the big end caps and
lift the crank out of the block for easy access to the shells. They are
sized the same way with numbers stamped on the block and crank to work
out the correct size. You can see it is a major excercise.
Why not just replace the big ends once then use an engine oil with the
correct additive package i.e lots of calcium (minimum 3000ppm) plenty of
zddp and preferably 10w30 and every 10,000km do an oil analysis and if
you are getting a second brg failure which is very unlikely it will show
up in the oil analysis as elevated levels of aluminium and tin or if
using aftermarket shells copper and lead. I am not a fan of copper lead
brg replacement for original Al/Sn brg's as yes it has better dirt
embeddability but it can't support the same loads as the harder Al/Sn
brg's.
If any one wants a copy I can email a word document that I recently
updated that explains the difference in engine design's between Japan,
USA, & europe and why they require diffrent types of oil for best
component life. Use of inappropiate oil will NOT cause a catastrophic
failure in a short period (i.e. inside warranty period is extremely
unlikely) of time but it will cause a premature wear failure which may
or may not be catastrophic.
Cheers,
Craig.
NB: Stop trying to wear out my finger tips.
Gareth Jones wrote:
 
G

Guest

Guest
Graig,
As you might expect I will bite on the offer of an email document re oil
types. Not because of any LC related issues but because we had a Nissan
Navara 2.5L TD get quite noisy all of a sudden at a little over 80K miles.
Nissan looked at is as a courtesy even though is was all of a few thousand
miles out of warranty.
Two cylinder bores were scored and there was heavy wear on a few of the cam
followers, when Nissan asked for =A34000 to repair it we fitted a second hand
engine ourselves.
Mains con rod bearings on the old unit haven't even been looked at but
sometime I will have a look and measure the clearances.
Engine had done mostly motorway miles at 85mph ish (my boss) with regular
oil changes with an API CH4 which might not have the calcium content of some
oils.
Plastigage by the way is now quite hard to find in the UK, I have just
ordered some online, shows how few people play with engines.
Malcolm Bagley
Stafford, UK
1975 FJ45 Pickup (In Work)
_______________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: [Email address removed] [mailto:[Email address removed]] On
Behalf Of Craig Vincent
Sent: 05 July 2006 22:01
To: [Email address removed]
Subject: Re: [ELCO] Big end bearings
Hi Guy's,
Confusion seems to really raining on this topic. Big end shells can be
replaced in place in the vehicle easily mains can not.
To replace the big ends remove the sump and read off the numbers stamped on both the conrods and the crankshaft, then consult the workshop manual to work out what size you need (the following is Maartens tip) then get
one shell size thicker this tightens the clearance 1-2 tenth's of a thou to allow for a little wear and bedding in of the crank. To actually
replace them undo one conrod cap at a time and push the rod up the bore
a little way and flick out the old shells and refit the new (I like to
for my piece of mind and the little bit of extra time involved to
plastigauge each journal to check the clearance) shells and tighten the
caps to spec and then move onto the next one. Turning the crank ot be at the bottom for easiest access.
The mains are a whole different story as the toyota has a one piece main brg cradle (what you would expect on a purpose built race motor not a
old plodder truck motor) which dramatically enhances the stiffness of
the block you can't remove individual main brg caps to replace the
bearings. If it had individual main caps you could potentially (but
some engines attach the front and rear main seal retainers to the front
and rear main brgs preventing there removal) remove them one at a time
and slide the top shell around the crank in place, but not on the cruiser.
To replace mains remove engine from car remove front timing gear
housings, oil pump housing and rear main seal retainer from rear of
block, so that these components are not bridging across the main brg
cradle and the block, remove the main brg cradle. Now you can replace
the main brg's using the above method or remove all the big end caps and lift the crank out of the block for easy access to the shells. They are
sized the same way with numbers stamped on the block and crank to work
out the correct size. You can see it is a major excercise.
Why not just replace the big ends once then use an engine oil with the
correct additive package i.e lots of calcium (minimum 3000ppm) plenty of zddp and preferably 10w30 and every 10,000km do an oil analysis and if
you are getting a second brg failure which is very unlikely it will show up in the oil analysis as elevated levels of aluminium and tin or if
using aftermarket shells copper and lead. I am not a fan of copper lead
brg replacement for original Al/Sn brg's as yes it has better dirt
embeddability but it can't support the same loads as the harder Al/Sn
brg's.
If any one wants a copy I can email a word document that I recently
updated that explains the difference in engine design's between Japan,
USA, & europe and why they require diffrent types of oil for best
component life. Use of inappropiate oil will NOT cause a catastrophic
failure in a short period (i.e. inside warranty period is extremely
unlikely) of time but it will cause a premature wear failure which may
or may not be catastrophic.
Cheers,
Craig.
NB: Stop trying to wear out my finger tips.
Gareth Jones wrote:

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G

Guest

Guest
Hello all
All this talk of big end bearings has me worried
How would you know if they need changing?
Is it something that should be done before a 6month African trip on a vehicle with 280k km
Any insight appreciated
Thanks
Niall
'95 HDJ81
Lubo,
Find another mechanic ;-)
All engines have big end bearings and it doesn't take years of
training with Toyota to know how to change them.
The only thing to remember is that you will need information to select
the bearing thickness.
To do that you will have to know some numbers stamped on the engine parts:
cylinder block and crankshaft. Using these numbers your mechanic can
order the appropriate bearings. The trouble is he wont be able to do
that before looking inside the engine, so the job wil take longer.
Speak to Maarten Verschure of All American Imports in NL (
[Email address removed] ) and get more advice. He can send the parts to
you even next day.
--
Rgds,
Roman (London, UK)
'92 HDJ80
On 7/5/06, Lubomir Kolev <[Email address removed]> wrote:
the
were
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Niall,
Unfortunately there are no golden rules with this. Some 80 never have
any problems where as some do.
It isn't a massively expensive job to do, so for piece of mind it is
worth getting them done before a major trip particularly if your
vehicle has 100-150k miles on the clock.
The problem mainly seems to occur with 80 series LC produced between
'90-'95 although I believe that there might be issues with the 24valve
engines, but can't remember.
You can find out a bit more about it here:
http://www.safari4x4.com.au/80scool/tech/td_bearings.html
Do follow the links from that page to the other pages, lots of good
stuff there.
--
Regards,
Julian Voelcker
Mobile: 07971 540362
Skype: julianvoelcker
Cirencester, United Kingdom
1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
 
G

Guest

Guest
Thanks Julian
Think I'll get them done at the next timing belt change which is looming
Niall
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey Niall
Get them done, a few hundred euro and for that you get good sleep, can come
of the medication, dont need to worry, dont imagine non exsistant sounds
from the engine bay, and nearly forgot can save you up to 6000 euro when
they do go if they do. Mine decided to go with a crunch and no warning at
all.
cheers
john 92HDJ 80 1HDT
 
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