Can I name and shame a 4x4 Outfitter?

[goingdownsouth]

I have a problem with an Optima Yellow Top Battery.

It was bought in November 2009.

This type of battery has either a 24 month or 36 month warranty.

I called to inform the 4x4 Outfitter that the Yellow Top is not holding charge. They suggested a Deep Cycle charger and then to try it again. This was done a few times but battery still not holding charge for long. I had the battery electronically stress tested by my local Battery specialists which said this battery is knackered.

A certain 4x4 Outfitter refuse to honour the product warranty. They are stating it has a 12 month warranty.

I checked with the US manufacturers and it clearly states 36 month warranty!

The Outfitter recon the UK only offer a 12 month warranty on these Optima batteries.

What is my rights as a Customer?

Any suggestions?

 

[fridayman]

You don't hear about a lot of these going wrong, so I am surprised that they don't just replace it for you. I personally have a real problem with poor customer service, so I say name and shame.

 

[Andrew Prince]

[Admin hat on]
If you decide to name & shame, please try and stick to the facts and do not make defamatory posts.

By all means warn other members of possible issues with a supplier or product.

Cheers,

 

[Paul]

Items that are imported regularly have a different warranty period to the original country warranty.
Is there any documantation to state exactly what the warranty period is from the UK side?

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

I wouldn't name and shame until you've either resolved the situation or had some proper advice in case it prejudices the outcome.

 

[pugwash]

You don't hear about a lot of these going wrong, so I am surprised that they don't just replace it for you. I personally have a real problem with poor customer service, so I say name and shame.

unfortunately you do hear about problems in certain realms- they had massive problems a couple of years ago with loads of them breaking.

fwiw i think the warranty is now 12 months- used to be 3 years.

sales of goods act still applies

a battery should definitely last longer than 12 months, especially a "high-end" one.

 

[misterpaul]

Some good info on consumer rights on the Which? site...

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... ur-rights/

Most importantly for the OP...

"...a manufacturer's guarantee does not replace your rights under the Sale of Goods Act."

And...

"Under the Sale of Goods Act, if something is not of 'satisfactory quality' you have the right have it replaced or repaired free."

As Pugwash has pointed out, a good quality battery that you paid a premium price for should definately last more than 12 months. If it doesn't then it isn't of 'satisfactory quality'.

If this particular supplier won't play ball when you're speaking with them over the phone or in person then it's time to start writing them a letter setting out the legal position and giving them a timescale in which they have to respond. There are sample letters on the Which? website.

Going back to the original question, I think it's fair enough to name suppliers if they supply products that aren't of satisfactory quality and then ignore consumer law when you ask nicely for repair or replacement.

Good luck with this one.

 

[goingdownsouth]

You don't hear about a lot of these going wrong, so I am surprised that they don't just replace it for you. I personally have a real problem with poor customer service, so I say name and shame.

unfortunately you do hear about problems in certain realms- they had massive problems a couple of years ago with loads of them breaking.

fwiw i think the warranty is now 12 months- used to be 3 years.

sales of goods act still applies

a battery should definitely last longer than 12 months, especially a "high-end" one.

Thank you for the reply - do you have any more information about these "failures" a couple of years ago? . I need as much proof as possible to fight them. I might have one of thise dodgy batteries and never knew

This battery was bought November 2009. I realised it had issues since January 2011 ( mere 14 months later)

I called "THE SUPPLIER 4x4 OUTFITTER" who suggested I charge it with a conditioning deep cycle charger. This never worked and now all of a sudden they claim just 12 months warranty but would offer me a replacement for £160.

Not nice!!

I checked the Sale of Goods act but my case doesn't seem to fall within the lines

 

[misterpaul]

Why do you say that your case doesn't fall within the Sale of Goods Act? The Act takes precedent over any manufacturers warranty. I don't know if you'd want the hassle of going to court, but you have 6 years from the date of purchase to do this.

As the fault came to light more than 6 months after purchase it's up to you to prove that the battery wasn't 'of satisfactory quality', but you said you had it tested by a specialist already. If they will say that the fault was pre-existing and not caused by ordinary wear and tear or damage caused by you that would be plenty of proof.

 

[pugwash]

Sales of goods act definitely is relevant.

you need to read up about it though- it will tak roughly 1 hour of your time and could save you £200 or so!

links to discussion about optima's:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=31697
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showt ... p?t=200631

 

[goingdownsouth]

Thank you chaps!

I've read the Sale of Goods Act - well worth it.

I've also emailed the Americans and they are bending over backwards to help all of a sudden.

A few choice words about their Product and loosing faith etc etc and we are overwelmed from over the pond.

The local UK Outfitter is still hiding behind terms and conditions

 

[Paul]

With my Warranty manager head on from an Agricultural Dealer that also sells things like batteries.

While i agree that the battery has failed early, come consideration might have to go to the company that sold the battery. If their terms and conditions concerning warranty from their supplier states one year then thats all they have to give. If you look at most warranty policies for even the whole vehicle then quite often only one year is given for things like batteries, as most policies are a limited status, even on a multi year policy.

There should be a way to get help from the manufacturer which you have done and sounds like the UK dealer could have helped more to do this on your behalf, but not their fault if the units are failing especially as they may already be out of pocket if there is a known fault with the item and have already replaced/refunded any on their own and hoping for help from the manufacturer themselves.

The advice they are giving might be straight from the manufacturer as the first course of action as you can imagine what some of the customers are like, confiming with them that you have followed the advice can also help as they may need to feed that back to manufacturer before they can proceed further.

 

[misterpaul]

Great news that you're getting somewhere with the manufacturer.

A couple of points though.

While i agree that the battery has failed early, come consideration might have to go to the company that sold the battery. If their terms and conditions concerning warranty from their supplier states one year then thats all they have to give. If you look at most warranty policies for even the whole vehicle then quite often only one year is given for things like batteries, as most policies are a limited status, even on a multi year policy.

Sorry, but this is not true. The Sale of Goods Act takes precedent over any warranty. If the manufacturer or retailer insists that they can do no more than the terms of their warranty this is an weak excuse. The law is the Sale of Goods Act, not a warranty. The amount of time the warranty is for is also irrelevant. The important legal consideration is whether the item is of satisfactory quality, not the amount of time on the warranty. This is the reason why any 'extended warranty' offered by retailers on expensive electrical goods is a scam.

There should be a way to get help from the manufacturer which you have done and sounds like the UK dealer could have helped more to do this on your behalf, but not their fault if the units are failing especially as they may already be out of pocket if there is a known fault with the item and have already replaced/refunded any on their own and hoping for help from the manufacturer themselves.

Sorry but this is also not true. Under the Sale of Goods Act responsibility lies with the retailer not the manufacturer. In this case it's good that the manufacturer is stepping up, but legally it's the retailer who's responsible. It's not the customer's concern if the retailer ends up out of pocket, etc, etc. These are just more weak excuses from people trying to avoid their legal responsibilities when they sell you dodgy products.

Don't be distracted by the smoke and mirrors of meaningless warranty terms and conditions, the Sale of Goods Act is very clear and worth reading up on.

 

[Paul]

Think you miss the point.

Again, i do believe that the battery has failed early and the retailer should be helping more.

If this was an item we had sold and was outside the normal AGREED warranty terms (no has yet said what the term was when the battery was first bought, is there evidence from the retailer that it is actually 3 years?) then the only responsibility we have is to help the customer get refund or replacement from the manufacturer. If it is a known or very good customer then we may fund this move ourselves and take what is escentially a gamble on getting the money back.
Also, It all depends on the terms the retailer has with the manufacturer, the term "official" supplier comes into its own in this case as this gives an avenue for the customer should things go wrong with the retailer (retailers going bust for example.)

As i said quite clearly, the retailer should help or chase the manufacturer on behalf of the customer and this is what seems not to be happening.

The other point is that who fitted the battery? The retailer and manufacturer will asume correct fitting and use (which i'm sure it is in this case) but who knows with some people.

I'm not saying that the Sale of Goods act is not applicable here, just that the retailer has the right to seek help/funding/new supply from the manufacturer to help the customer rather than just sending out new parts or money and this is what is not happening in this case and they are well within their rights to try and solve the situation with some advice before going down the refund/replace route.

On the other hand, if the retailer is just being an arse then take them to the cleaners.

 

[pugwash]

Think you miss the point.

Again, i do believe that the battery has failed early and the retailer should be helping more.

If this was an item we had sold and was outside the normal AGREED warranty terms (no has yet said what the term was when the battery was first bought, is there evidence from the retailer that it is actually 3 years?) then the only responsibility we have is to help the customer get refund or replacement from the manufacturer. If it is a known or very good customer then we may fund this move ourselves and take what is escentially a gamble on getting the money back.
Also, It all depends on the terms the retailer has with the manufacturer, the term "official" supplier comes into its own in this case as this gives an avenue for the customer should things go wrong with the retailer (retailers going bust for example.)

As i said quite clearly, the retailer should help or chase the manufacturer on behalf of the customer and this is what seems not to be happening.

The other point is that who fitted the battery? The retailer and manufacturer will asume correct fitting and use (which i'm sure it is in this case) but who knows with some people.

I'm not saying that the Sale of Goods act is not applicable here, just that the retailer has the right to seek help/funding/new supply from the manufacturer to help the customer rather than just sending out new parts or money and this is what is not happening in this case and they are well within their rights to try and solve the situation with some advice before going down the refund/replace route.

On the other hand, if the retailer is just being an arse then take them to the cleaners.

Paul,

Understand fully where you're coming from- having been self emplyed for years i know what its like having to fix problems you don't think are your own.

BUT

the sales of goods act is very clear. If a product is unsatisfactory it is the RETAILERS legal and financial responsibility to resolve any problems- the consumer has no recourse to the manufacturer.

OUtside of warranty you have more responsbilities than you are aware of.

As you say, the retailer has to be given a chance to resolve the situation, but if they aren't engaging with the customer in any form, then the customer has little choice but to approach the courts system!

 

[misterpaul]

Think you miss the point.

the point is that, as Pugwash has already said, customers have more legal rights than most people are aware of, well beyond what the manufacturer or retailer will admit to with a 'warranty'. And it really doesn't matter how hard done by the retailer feels, they have the legal responsibility to sort things out not the manufacturer.

Maybe we should leave the legal discussion there. I'll be interested to hear from the OP what the outcome of this one is though. Maybe at the end of the day he'll be saying the retailer has come around and given a full refund / free replacement and he'll be naming them for doing the right thing.

 

[Paul]

Absolutley it is the retailers responsibility.

But

They have the right to obtain the refund or replacment from their supplier and pass that on, something in this case does not seem to be happening.

 

[pugwash]

Absolutley it is the retailers responsibility.

But

They have the right to obtain the refund or replacment from their supplier and pass that on, something in this case does not seem to be happening.

Your second point is irrelevant to the consumer though!

A retailer can't say to a customer "oh we're waiting to hear from the manufacturer". From the consumers point of view, this has no bearing on anythying- a consumer may choose to give the retailer some time (especially if the retailer is being helpful), but he doesn't have to.

What the retailer should do is take the chance to resolve the problem fairly (and this may be to replace, repair, refund- even partially), then resolver the difficulty with the manufacturer.

 

[Paul]

Sorry but i think it is very relevant and is normal practice.

In fact it is also normal practice to charge the customer for the replacement and then issue a credit if it is received from the manufacturer although with known problems this tends not to happen.

Sorry if this sounds harsh and if it was one of my customers then a new battery or refund would have been given straight away as my business relies on good service and reccommendations. Just trying to put forward what you may be confronted with as ammo to deal with an awkward dealer.

 

[misterpaul]

Sorry but i think it is very relevant and is normal practice.

In fact it is also normal practice to charge the customer for the replacement and then issue a credit if it is received from the manufacturer although with known problems this tends not to happen.

Just because something is 'normal practice' doesn't make it correct. The point that myself and Pugwash are making in this thread is that manufacturers and retailers will often try and get away with things that they shouldn't be allowed to. The law is very clear and if more people had this knowledge there would be less threads like this where the OP is unsatisfied with the (unlawful) response he's been given.

Please read a summary of the Sale of Goods Act. This is an Act of Parliament, the law, and beats 'warranties' and 'normal practice'. It won't take long, and you'll find it contradicts most of the points you're making.