Cruisers and their equals

[Paddler Ed]

1970s the large 4x4 market was dominated by the Series Land Rover, Nissan Patrol G40 and Toyota Land Cruiser 40/50 series - all much of a muchness in terms of simplicity. However, LR were still running 2.25 petrols/diesels, and rarely 2.6 6 cylinders... and playing with the Rover V8... except in Australia where they shoved a Holden motor in... In the back ground was the Range Rover and Mercedes G-Wagen (which hadn't found it's space yet completely)

1980's was the split into utilitarian lines (40 and 70 series (heavy)) and civilised (60 series and 70 series (light)) Land Cruisers in a number of different wheelbases, Nissan stuck to running the MQ and then the GQ Patrol; both of the Nissan offerings did ute and wagon, SWB and LWB. GQ also went to coils before the LC. Land Rover had the Range Rover moving up market in that time. Misubishi was just bringing the Shogun/Pajero online, as a civilised option. Don't forget Isuzu had the Trooper out at this time as well. G-Wagen was still ticking away in the background during this time - sold in the UK via Mercedes Truck dealers... but then it started to get really messy - Land Rover had found the Range Rover moving upmarket, the Trooper, Shogun had found a niche for comfy offroaders without load of exposed metal... Cue the arrival of the parts bin special... Yes, the Land Rover Discovery (Maestro van, Morris Marina and Sherpa vans all gave parts to it...). Also at this time Daihatsu was making tough little things (Scat, Foutrak/Fieldman) with decent engines in them.

1990's The market got a bit more confused - Toyota had the Land Cruiser II in the UK, Prado/Bunderra elsewhere, 70 series Land Cruiser and then the 80 series (later on the 90 series came into play as well) - but the others stayed around and all tended to get a bit softer (Shogun and Trooper). G-Wagens were still lost - as with all Mercedes products they struggled with the German market workhorse image and the rest of the world luxury market. Nissan had the GU Patrol coming out, still with a big engine at first with a smaller option. Don't forget the Nissan Terrano II with the TD27 (2/3 of a TD42) Daihatsu started to exit the market a bit, completely out by about 2001 IIRC.

2000's The split of the Land Cruiser range into 70, 80, 90 was completed, whilst Land Rover was a bit lost. Isuzu was exiting the market, and Nissan was getting it wrong with the ZD30. LR was moving things more and more upmarket with the Range Rover, and the Discovery was heading that way as well as the 7 seater option. Defender was still a workhorse, but the engine choices were never developed enough as Ford forced their engine solutions onto all the companies in their ownership, even if they were near ready, if there was something already around. Toyota still had the 100 (and 105 series) available in a fairly basic form in some markets, but other markets got the luxo versions (Lexus versions available from the 80 and 120 series)

2010's: The shift upmarket of nearly everything except for the Defender and the 70 series in most markets - however, the Defender got a re-birth as a Chelsea Tractor at this stage as well. G-Wagen finally found it's niche in a similar way... Others have continued as before, some getting softer (Shogun) and more car like, others might not be changing that much.

So, after that ramble what does it add to Brian's original comment... Well, I think that the 80 series is what the Range Rover should have morphed into in the late 1980s (when Rover was broke), whilst the Discovery is a competitor to the Collie - the 70 series matches the Deafener better in terms of modularity and wheelbases. Also, the ~100" wheelbase of a 73/74 is about the same as Discovery (and therefore the original Range Rover) - which means that the 'Light' L/KZJ73/4 is a direct competitor in terms of size to a Discovery, but down on seating.

But, did you know that a 2017 RAV4
-is longer wheelbase (by 80mm), is 55mm wider, 255mm longer than a FJ73/BJ74 Land Cruiser,
-is 120mm longer in the wheelbase, 27mm wider and 155mm longer than an original Range Rover
Something to think about when trying to draw parallels across the years...

 

[Paddler Ed]

As no one has mentioned it....the G Class is a pretty formidable off-roader, especially in basic military spec. But as basic as a Defender with a price tag out of reality these days. I'd agree the 80 is one of the best ever built.

I was working on the small essay...

 

[stumog]

My 80 has been through very tight lanes that a 90 with 35s couldn't get through. I only put the center diff in to make it fair

 

[pyemaster]

I went for a Hilux Surf because it's got similarly functionality to the 80, but is half a tonne lighter, slightly smaller (and thus more nimble on tighter tracks) and better on fuel, running the 1-KZ.

From the showroom it's certainly not as capable as an 80 off road (the second gen Surf had no F/R locker as standard), but in my opinion with the IFS is more refined on road, and lockers can be added.

As ever, it's a compromise between on/off road driving, long distance trips / daily use, etc etc, and comes down to the whatever the right tool for the job is for you.

For me, an 80 was too big, heavy and expensive to run, despite their capability.

My Hilux is tough as old boots, it'll get me 99% of the places an 80 will go, with similar reliability and build quality, and can be modified to suit.

Owen

 

[Towpack]

You certainly see a lot more Surfs around than you do 80's, most of them seem to be imports. Were they ever sold as UK models?

 

[Chris]

Wasn't it badged as the Forerunner?

 

[pyemaster]

Yeah the UK ones were badged 4Runners, the Japanese ones Surfs. They came with higher spec kit from the factory, winter packs, rear heaters, idle-up switches, twin batteries, adjustable drivers seat lumbar and bolster width, electric sunroof/windows/mirrors that sort of thing.

Owen

 

[joinerman]

Oh yes the Smurf, i had one, well equipped but BOY was it thirsty.

 

[Tommy345]

If I could have my pick I’d take a Y60 or Y61 long wheel base with the factory TD42 turbo. They just all suffer for the worst case of Rot.

 

[clivehorridge]

I’m not going to argue too much with the above posts they all seem pretty factual, even the emotional ones!

Just a couple of points, IMO, the freelander doesn’t count, it’s just a 4x4 car, as was the fiat panda. It’s weak and wimpish, don’t know about the engines, but one look underneath and it’s just like mechano.

Also (IMO) the old patrols take a lot of beating. Never owned one, but there’s some Trol fans here that swear the axles beat the 80s for strength and reliability.

Again IMO Landrover stopped making anything useful after circa 1970, except the RR classic which was tough comfy and well, erm, classic.

Ever since, it’s just another high priced luxury SUV.

80s rule and could only be topped by a 100, but hard as I try, I cannot accept the IFS, so IMO the 80 is still there...

I’m not biased at all, BTW.

 

[Towpack]

Another big plus point of the 80 series IMO is their age which means a distinct lack of electronics so you can actually work on and repair them comparatively easily. Modern equivalents with their 'take it to the dealer' warning lights can be an absolute and expensive nightmare. Someone on here, can't remember who, was talking about his car (an Audi/VW IIRC) for which you needed a laptop and software just to change the brake pads!

 

[chapel gate]

Surfs are a absolute bargain imo, the imports are in near mint condition.

the trouble with the G wagon is there the price of a small island....

clive, just because your mr January and your adorning my living room wall with your rather nice snow scene featuring a very handsome 80 doesn't mean you can poke fun at the first two cars i ever owned. Ill have you know with its "town and country" tyres on the panda used to put 4x4s costing three times as much to shame coming up axe edge out of buxton..

weak and wimpish, hu!

 

[fbnss]

Surfs are a absolute bargain imo, the imports are in near mint condition.

Next you'll be asking what the red button does....

 

[Brian S]

1970s the large 4x4 market was dominated by the Series Land Rover, Nissan Patrol G40 and Toyota Land Cruiser 40/50 series - all much of a muchness in terms of simplicity. However, LR were still running 2.25 petrols/diesels, and rarely 2.6 6 cylinders... and playing with the Rover V8... except in Australia where they shoved a Holden motor in... In the back ground was the Range Rover and Mercedes G-Wagen (which hadn't found it's space yet completely)

1980's was the split into utilitarian lines (40 and 70 series (heavy)) and civilised (60 series and 70 series (light)) Land Cruisers in a number of different wheelbases, Nissan stuck to running the MQ and then the GQ Patrol; both of the Nissan offerings did ute and wagon, SWB and LWB. GQ also went to coils before the LC. Land Rover had the Range Rover moving up market in that time. Misubishi was just bringing the Shogun/Pajero online, as a civilised option. Don't forget Isuzu had the Trooper out at this time as well. G-Wagen was still ticking away in the background during this time - sold in the UK via Mercedes Truck dealers... but then it started to get really messy - Land Rover had found the Range Rover moving upmarket, the Trooper, Shogun had found a niche for comfy offroaders without load of exposed metal... Cue the arrival of the parts bin special... Yes, the Land Rover Discovery (Maestro van, Morris Marina and Sherpa vans all gave parts to it...). Also at this time Daihatsu was making tough little things (Scat, Foutrak/Fieldman) with decent engines in them.

1990's The market got a bit more confused - Toyota had the Land Cruiser II in the UK, Prado/Bunderra elsewhere, 70 series Land Cruiser and then the 80 series (later on the 90 series came into play as well) - but the others stayed around and all tended to get a bit softer (Shogun and Trooper). G-Wagens were still lost - as with all Mercedes products they struggled with the German market workhorse image and the rest of the world luxury market. Nissan had the GU Patrol coming out, still with a big engine at first with a smaller option. Don't forget the Nissan Terrano II with the TD27 (2/3 of a TD42) Daihatsu started to exit the market a bit, completely out by about 2001 IIRC.

2000's The split of the Land Cruiser range into 70, 80, 90 was completed, whilst Land Rover was a bit lost. Isuzu was exiting the market, and Nissan was getting it wrong with the ZD30. LR was moving things more and more upmarket with the Range Rover, and the Discovery was heading that way as well as the 7 seater option. Defender was still a workhorse, but the engine choices were never developed enough as Ford forced their engine solutions onto all the companies in their ownership, even if they were near ready, if there was something already around. Toyota still had the 100 (and 105 series) available in a fairly basic form in some markets, but other markets got the luxo versions (Lexus versions available from the 80 and 120 series)

2010's: The shift upmarket of nearly everything except for the Defender and the 70 series in most markets - however, the Defender got a re-birth as a Chelsea Tractor at this stage as well. G-Wagen finally found it's niche in a similar way... Others have continued as before, some getting softer (Shogun) and more car like, others might not be changing that much.

So, after that ramble what does it add to Brian's original comment... Well, I think that the 80 series is what the Range Rover should have morphed into in the late 1980s (when Rover was broke), whilst the Discovery is a competitor to the Collie - the 70 series matches the Deafener better in terms of modularity and wheelbases. Also, the ~100" wheelbase of a 73/74 is about the same as Discovery (and therefore the original Range Rover) - which means that the 'Light' L/KZJ73/4 is a direct competitor in terms of size to a Discovery, but down on seating.

But, did you know that a 2017 RAV4
-is longer wheelbase (by 80mm), is 55mm wider, 255mm longer than a FJ73/BJ74 Land Cruiser,
-is 120mm longer in the wheelbase, 27mm wider and 155mm longer than an original Range Rover
Something to think about when trying to draw parallels across the years...

And breathe, is your next project to re-write War and Peace

That was a very good and knowledgeable post Ed

 

[clivehorridge]

Surfs are a absolute bargain imo, the imports are in near mint condition.

the trouble with the G wagon is there the price of a small island....

clive, just because your mr January and your adorning my living room wall with your rather nice snow scene featuring a very handsome 80 doesn't mean you can poke fun at the first two cars i ever owned. Ill have you know with its "town and country" tyres on the panda used to put 4x4s costing three times as much to shame coming up axe edge out of buxton..

weak and wimpish, hu!

Well there’s a hidden list in this post Mike...

First, I didn’t know I was Mr January 2018, I haven’t been ‘home’ to Bucharest since they were posted out, so that’s a great surprise thanks!

Don’t get me wrong, when I say wimpish I’m comparing it with any of the ‘Cruisers, and neither the panda nor the freelander do (IMO). There’s a lot which are good in this league too, the lada niva is another...

I forgot to add my 6/years experience with a Terrano. It was quite capable, no question, but it had a lot of shabby plastic, and the turbo died after 2 years from new... Again, a genuine 4x4 and quite comfy, but it simply doesn’t compare with any of the ‘Cruiser stable.

Did you have a Freelander too?

 

[chapel gate]

.....what does the red button do? Doh!

 

[clivehorridge]

.....what does the red button do? Doh!

Bugger all!

Excellent

 

[hopeless wanderer]

If Landrovers had been fitted with front and rear lockers, strengthened, drive-trains, reliable electrics, a degree of comfort, better build quality and bullet proof engines, they have been truly unbeatable.

I said IF......

Reminds me of the Italian chef on morning TV.
"And if my grandmother had wheels she would be a bicycle"
(There is a cruder version with an auntie and some testicles)

 

[Shayne]

The Defender and the 40 still have a huge appeal for me , i just love the meccano like simplicity , I wonder who will be the first to realize a back to basics approach new vehicle would likely turn the 4x4 market on its head .

 

[hopeless wanderer]

I would have said the 40 series was the Series Land Rover and Defender nearest equivalent with the many variants and modifications it has, maybe the Troopy is in there too with this. The Disco has some appalling build quality issues and a clutch that needs the legs of a Russian shot putter! (At least the one I had to move did!) but it has to be said capable off road if they stay in one piece.

I totally agree with the 'blind patriotism' statement, they can almost do no wrong, and I think it is this that has allowed LR to continue to produce very expensive good looking, vehicles (ok except the Ewok ) that fail miserably very soon out of the gate. I find it so sad. We could have beaten the world with them if only they lived up to their reputation (as excellent 4x4s, not vehicles that break).

I completely agree. Watch more or less any top gear and it's just a rolling Landrover advert, it gets a bit tiring that they constantly sing the praises of the brummie tractor.
Brand new models, straight off the assembly line racing tanks and all manner of other vehicles is all well and good, let's see them 10-15 years down the road with their leaky air suspension and electrical gremlins and you'll find the thing they can't outrun is the MOT tester.
I had a series III 109 for a while (I was young, I didn't know better and none of my friends talked me out of it) it was shite. The one long journey I did was a drive from Beds to Teesside had 1 breakdown and was so uncomfortable I arrived feeling like I'd been beaten up and raped.
I'd gladly take my 80 to the end of the world and know I'd arrive in somewhat better shape.