Diesel is DEAD

[frank rabbets]

Nappies, you should be so lucky. We're so hard up we have to eat ours.

 

[Towpack]

The reality is pollution in cities is dramatically less than it used to be, just look at old photographs of cities, yet respiratory illnesses are apparently increasing. I think you need to look further than the diesel car to find the cause.

Dirty buildings were caused by smoke particulates which aren’t really a problem any more. It’s NO2 that seems to be the concern.

 

[Shayne]

The reality is pollution in cities is dramatically less than it used to be, just look at old photographs of cities, yet respiratory illnesses are apparently increasing. I think you need to look further than the diesel car to find the cause.

It's off topic i suppose but i have long believed if cities were diluted it would cure many many modern day problems .
Kids can make friends with people on the opposite side of the globe in this day and age making the whole concept of cities redundant in a modern world .

Lloyd's of London for example could operate perfectly well if it were based in the most poverty stricken area of the UK .

 

[Higgy]

It's off topic i suppose but i have long believed if cities were diluted it would cure many many modern day problems .
Kids can make friends with people on the opposite side of the globe in this day and age making the whole concept of cities redundant in a modern world .

Lloyd's of London for example could operate perfectly well if it were based in the most poverty stricken area of the UK .

Lloyds of London do operate in the most poverty stricken area of the UK.

 

[Shayne]

https://www.lloyds.com/about-lloyds/for-visitors/how-to-find-us

Regardless Lloyds was just a name picked out of a hat what i mean is essentially there is no need to centralize employment that is almost entirely digital .

Analysis of private sector employment in London shows that 51 per cent occurs within large firms. This means that 49 per cent of private sector employment in London occurs within small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).

 

[Dieseldragon]

I still think the value of old school 4x4s might hold firm. I was behind a new disco yesterday, what the hell is that all about? Ive seen more ground clearance on a skate board..

Also possibly the ugliest thing ever made

 

[Higgy]

https://www.lloyds.com/about-lloyds/for-visitors/how-to-find-us

Regardless Lloyds was just a name picked out of a hat what i mean is essentially there is no need to centralize employment that is almost entirely digital .

Analysis of private sector employment in London shows that 51 per cent occurs within large firms. This means that 49 per cent of private sector employment in London occurs within small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).

I do agree with you, actually. It seems ludicrous to have vehicles going to physical places when, actually, we do have the technology to work from remote/home locations. Here's a question you might have a viewpoint on: my missus works in a school. The school run for her school alone must generate 700 cars/buses, etc. Hers is one of seven schools within a mile of one another. Staff ride-sharing doesn't work because staff arrive and leave at different times and some have meetings when others don't. Parents seem to find it easier to just drive kids in rather then walk them. With reduction of diesel emissions/particles as well as pollution from petrol in mind, how can we 'do' education in a less polluting way?

 

[Shayne]

Your describing a population density problem , however i have no doubt each of those seven schools have adequate provision for drivers to drop off and collect , they no doubt also offer quality education and prospects .

The poorer areas have one school no provisions for drivers and shared books , the future prospect for students is if they do well then maybe they can move to the city and find a good job one day .

That's what i mean by dilute , high density population prevents nature fighting back , and a single hub of wealth , one corporate tower employing 1000 people could transform a stricken town with the trickle down effect , they need cleaners , food , maintenance etc and people who are earning want to paint their house or have a nice garden whatever , this would bring about a realistic regeneration of the whole country instead of bunging a few hundred million at ridiculous regeneration schemes that do more to impoverish the masses than they do to fix the problem .

 

[Higgy]

Your describing a population density problem , however i have no doubt each of those seven schools have adequate provision for drivers to drop off and collect , they no doubt also offer quality education and prospects .

The poorer areas have one school no provisions for drivers and shared books , the future prospect for students is if they do well then maybe they can move to the city and find a good job one day .

That's what i mean by dilute , high density population prevents nature fighting back , and a single hub of wealth , one corporate tower employing 1000 people could transform a stricken town with the trickle down effect , they need cleaners , food , maintenance etc and people who are earning want to paint their house or have a nice garden whatever , this would bring about a realistic regeneration of the whole country instead of bunging a few hundred million at ridiculous regeneration schemes that do more to impoverish the masses than they do to fix the problem .

In a nutshell Yes!! But I don't think the words Quality. Prospects.and Dover should be used in the same sentence..PS can you help me with my post regarding front fog/spot lights (going off topic)..kind regards

 

[moggy1968]

More people and more vehicles. It used to be burning coal that was the big problem.

That’s not the answer. As a percentage of population respiratory illness is increasing and the pollution that is been acused of causing the damage is particulates, which anyone who lived in a city pre 1980 will tell you is significantly less. There’s a lot more particulates and toxins in burning coal than come out of a Diesel engine

 

[pekkerwood]

i had someone bang on about my dirty diesel, they had a electric car that plugged into the wall of there house in a affluent suburb.

The electricity came from a coal powered electric plant next to a shit hole suburb

 

[moggy1968]

Dirty buildings were caused by smoke particulates which aren’t really a problem any more. It’s NO2 that seems to be the concern.

Thats not what the anti's are saying, they are saying it's particulates, or maybe they shift the blame depending on what they're arguing against!!
Nitrous oxide is principally a bad man because of it's effects on ozone, not respiratory function, indeed the WHO lists it on it's lists of essential medicines, the most effective and safe medicines needed in a health system. There is lots of evidence however that in recent years the ozone layer has been repairing itself.
30% of atmospheric nitrous oxide comes from human activity, the major contributor being agriculture. It is also widely used as a propellent in aerosols.
I can find no record of significant negative health effects from nitrous oxide in the atmosphere

 

[Towpack]

maybe they shift the blame depending on what they're arguing against!!

Can’t fault your thinking there mate.

 

[moggy1968]

Can’t fault your thinking there mate.

I've expanded my response since you posted this

 

[Towpack]

Thats not what the anti's are saying, they are saying it's particulates, or maybe they shift the blame depending on what they're arguing against!!
Nitrous oxide is principally a bad man because of it's effects on ozone, not respiratory function, indeed the WHO lists it on it's lists of essential medicines, the most effective and safe medicines needed in a health system. There is lots of evidence however that in recent years the ozone layer has been repairing itself.
30% of atmospheric nitrous oxide comes from human activity, the major contributor being agriculture. It is also widely used as a propellent in aerosols.
I can find no record of significant negative health effects from nitrous oxide in the atmosphere

It’s Nitrogen Dioxide, not Nitrous Oxide.

 

[moggy1968]

It’s Nitrogen Dioxide, not Nitrous Oxide.

Doh!!!

 

[moggy1968]

It’s Nitrogen Dioxide, not Nitrous Oxide.

Well, the principal cause of NO2 (I'll get the substance right in a minute!!) that people get exposed to is gas heating and cooking. The vast majority of most peoples time is spent indoors. It is notable that the increase in asthma in the developed world (it is very much a developed world problem, despite less developed countries often having high levels of vehicle pollution) can be chronologically correlated with increase use of gas in the home, and an increasing drive towards making homes sealed from the outside environment. There are also significant suggestive links between increasing asthma rates and the western obsession with cleaning using potent bacterial killing chemicals and also aerosols. I would suggest that children with an outdoors lifestyle tend to suffer less effects of diseases like asthma than those that have a more indoor lifestyle, and hence a greater exposure to domestic No2 emissions. maybe there is also a link between increasing asthma rates and the increasing tendency to keep children indoors. If you look at the horrendous traffic jams in cities in the 50s and 60s and the resultant pollution, asthma and chronic respiratory illnesses were still relatively unusual. most had an occupational cause. Asthma rates started increasing from the 1970s and have grown steadily since. The use of gas cooking and heating in the UK really started with the discovery of North sea oil in the 1970s. A statistical coincidence, or direct link? We have seen further significant increases from the 1990's. At the same time building regs became ever stricter, significantly restricting airflow through properties, for reasons I have never understood. A statistical coincidence, or direct link? Meanwhile vehicle emissions have steadily reduced.
Certainly there are issues with the NO2 released by vehicles, with a notable increase in levels found near roadways, but to pin the blame for respiratory illness on the car is misleading, the western in house domestic lifestyle is a much greater factor, but the government can't be arsed with the hassle of dealing with cleaning sprays, deodorants and gas heating/cookers.
I dread to think how much atmospheric NO2 is produced by those burnoffs at rigs!!
Regretably, as usually, the motorist is held to blame and punished, when the reality is the problem is much more complex and the motorist plays only a small part.

 

[moggy1968]

 

[MarkW]

Burning coal and emissions of Nitrogen and Sulphur Dioxides lead to the great smog in 1952, combined with the weather conditions at the time and the chemicals essentially causing high levels of sulphuric acid between 4000 - 12000 people died.

As a result the Clean Air Act was introduced in 1956 and subsequently improved the pollution levels, but it was targeted mostly at factories and homes burning coal etc. At the time vehicles weren't included. The health effects of poor quality polluted air were well know but not as much as we know today. In fact the UK has had environmental legislation aimed at controlling pollution and improving air quality since the mid to late 1800's

In the last 60+ years the number of vehicles on the road has increased dramatically, along with the subsequent exhaust emissions. Diesel exhaust is considered to be a Class 1 carcinogen from the various chemicals and also the higher levels of particulates compared to a petrol engine. Most of this issues around diesels is health related rather than climate change.

At the time the government were proposing to tax cars on C02 emissions, essentially pushing the consumers and particularly large corporate fleets in to buying diesels many environmental scientists highlighted that what they were doing was clamping down on one pollutant and actually increasing others (NOX and particulates from diesel over C02 from petrol)

Whilst not being up to speed with the increase in cases of asthma, particulate matter and its effects on asthma and as a carcinogen is well studied. I note from Moggys comment on gas heating and cooking increasing in the 70s, that this also ties in nicely with the implementation of the Clean Air Act 1968 (a revision of the 1956 legislation). Looks like an earlier attempt to control one pollutant source that leads to an increase from the replacement similar to the Petrol Diesel issue we've seen more recently.

 

[frank rabbets]

Easy, if you don't like whats outside wear a particulate filter..