eu in or out poll

[chapel gate]

well fellas you made a reet old mess of this one!

the "inners" will try and scare people who are sitting on the fence saying we cant survive outside of Europe, remember when they were saying we cant survive outside the euro?.. the people that want out for sure know this is rubbish. imo the winners of this referendum will be the ones who persuade the don't knows over to there camp.

I really hope the out campaigners get there shit together across the different parties. this is a once in a life time opportunity.

 

[clivehorridge]

Good thread though CG, spawned much more than yes/no

 

[chapel gate]

I know, im only joking. interesting views and opinions that need voicing, I find it interesting to know why people would want to stay in even though my mind has been made up years ago to leave if the opportunity ever came up.

 

[clivehorridge]

I know, im only joking. interesting views and opinions that need voicing, I find it interesting to know why people would want to stay in even though my mind has been made up years ago to leave if the opportunity ever came up.

The problem for me, and I think it goes for the majority, our views are severely hampered by ignorance of the implications either way. I'm not stupid (hang on I haven't finished yet...) but I'm no economist, I'm not a business man, I'm not a lawyer or a politician, so what do I know?

What pisses me off, is that democratic government is (supposed to be) a collective of informed persons who are qualified to make these decisions for the overall good of the country they represent, and the ultimate good of the electorate.

When faced with difficult decisions, their job (done well) becomes more and more important, so what do they do? They opt out of their responsibilities, and put the decision back to the uninformed masses (in general terms).

Then after the referendum, they'll say, can't blame us, you individuals chose (in/out). I'm not knocking democracy, but it has been described as the worst form of government.

 

[chapel gate]

at least we have the chance to voice our opinion on Europe, probable once and for all, in my life time anyway. this little country still packs a hell of a punch, we need to regain some self confidence in ourselves again. i think we have come a little dependant on being fed by the teat of mother Europe...

 

[Rob Cowell]

What pisses me off, is that democratic government is (supposed to be) a collective of informed persons who are qualified to make these decisions for the overall good of the country they represent, and the ultimate good of the electorate.

When faced with difficult decisions, their job (done well) becomes more and more important, so what do they do? They opt out of their responsibilities, and put the decision back to the uninformed masses (in general terms).

Then after the referendum, they'll say, can't blame us, you individuals chose (in/out). I'm not knocking democracy, but it has been described as the worst form of government.

I think exactly this too. The only caveat being with our current electoral system. For MEPs we have PPR, and UKIP have about a third of all UK seats. So clearly there is a significant anti-EU sentiment in the UK. I personally am uncertain that our best interests in Europe and of getting the most from the EU are best served by a group of MEPs who don't want to be there. If PPR was used for the General Election I can't see any excuse for referendums.

 

[Pumpy]

OUT

I remember the arguments about the EEC, "it's just a trading block" but it never was that was it? It was always about a European superstate, historical quotes from the main players confirm it was so, and it still is. The fact that the EU is holding back legislation until after the UK referendum says everything you need to know about the integrity of the EU and the integrity of those politicians who would have us remain, if the new legislation was good for us they'd be shouting about it before the referendum, so it's pretty obvious we won't like it.

Don't let them scare you with unfounded economic arguments, we can make our own trade deals that are in OUR best interest, rather than those of the Germans, French or bankrupt countries like Greece and Spain. The world has moved on, the EU is an analog dinosaur in the digital age, it's too slow, bin it and prosper. Plus we'd still be members of the EEC as it's a completely different treaty, do you think BMW Merc VW or whoever is not going to sell us their products?

When we vote to remain (they will not let us leave) watch a federalised EU superstate march on at an accelerated pace, we're so screwed.

 

[StarCruiser]

My thoughts entirely Pete…

 

[Rob Cowell]

Plus we'd still be members of the EEC as it's a completely different treaty, do you think BMW Merc VW or whoever is not going to sell us their products?

Do you mean the EEA? Free movement of people and trade (although not food, because Norway and Iceland dont subsidise farmers). Rather than EEC? Which was subsumbed into the EU in 2009.

The EEA is an agreement between EFTA and the EU. If we leave the EU I don't think that means we are still in the EEA. Have you seen anything that says we will be? I'm sure we can at least apply to join EFTA and pay our subs. Or we can negotiate as Switzerland has done which has given them broadly the same outcome, free trade (I think including food) and free movement of people.

Whatever trade treaty we have I'm sure we'll still be able to buy EU manufactured products. Any agreement will just define what tariffs if any will be applied to them.

 

[frank rabbets]

It's a no brainer really. On the day people will think "better the devil you know" and stay in. 65% in I reckon. Anyone starting a book ?

 

[chadr]

Like quite a few other people I speak to, I'm undecided.

For me, the most disappointing aspect of this whole debate has been the dismal quality of the arguments from both sides. Apart from some scaremongering and banding about unconfirmed figures and stats, there hasn't really been a solid case built by either side IMHO.

All I've wanted, and it's certainly not too much to ask, is that both side present their cases in a strong and positive manner along with FACTS.

Once I have that, I can usually make a decision as to what option might be better for me and mine in the long term.

IMHO the whole argument about sovereignty (whatever that means in the real world) is a side issue, the focus should be on the economic consequences of a leave or remain decision. I do know that a strong, wealthy nation will usually come to a negotiation in a stronger position than a weaker, poorer one.

A genuine case of .....I was undecided, now I'm not so sure!

 

[Firewout]

Well, it's a big thing. In or out, your decision to make and no turning back afterwards.
living in Antwerp, about 50 kms from Brussels, we have to stay in the EU. Period!
for me, the EU has got its advantages, like free movement of people and goods. For example, I could buy my superwinch 200GBP cheaper in the Uk then in Belgium. Bravo Europe.
On the downside, since 2011 we had the most fantastic legislation for oldtimers. Every vehicle older than 25 years can be an oldtimer if you dont't use it commercially. Just one visit to the mot station for a brief technical check and two days later a new license plate drops into your letterbox. 127€ tax/year and never ever to the mot again. Brilliant!
this stops in 2017 because the EU tells otherwise.....bummer! From 2017 on it's 30 year + yearly tech check. So there goes my plan to ship my '94 HZJ75 in 2019 to south america and leave it parked there for annual trips.

these are only two small examples how things can work out. Difficult choice anyway.

 

[Shayne]

Out can work and always has for crown dependencies .

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the European Union, and lies outside the European Economic Area (EEA). Nonetheless, Protocol Three of the treaty of accession of the United Kingdom permits trade for Manx goods without non-EU tariffs.[SUP][2][/SUP] In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.
As with Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom or a direct member of the European Community and its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3 of the Act of Accession, annexed to the Treaty of Accession 1972, by which the United Kingdom became a member of the European Economic Community.[SUP][3][/SUP]
The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession of the United Kingdom excluding the Channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of the Crown dependencies at the time.

 

[Rob Cowell]

Out can work and always has for crown dependencies .

Bit of a special case though, with a combined population of Barnsely's. I assume their free trade goes if we leave, as it is set out in our contract[1]. And I don't think most out supporters want the suzerainty of the dependencies. CETA might be a more realistic model, but there is still freedom of movement in that.




[1] Having just gone and lookeed it up that is what happens. And they don't get a vote on whether we leave or not.

 

[Pumpy]

The best exit strategy I've seen has been is called "Flexit" Flexible exit - you can download it at http://www.eureferendum.com/

Published on 22 Oct 2014
This film is about how the UK leaves the European Union.

“The UK secession from the EU, following an "out“ vote in a referendum and an Article 50 notification, will have significant geopolitical and economic consequences. Nevertheless, we expect the exit negotiations to be driven by the political realities of the day and in particular by the need to conclude them speedily.”
Dr Richard North - The opening words of Flexcit, The Definitive EU Exit Plan for Britain.

The thirty minute film brilliantly records the salient points of Dr North’s Flexcit lecture to a group of Workshop delegates organised by The Campaign for an Independent Britain (CIB). The Workshop was held in Devon in September 2014, it was one of a series of ongoing events across the country, further information is available on the CIB site http://campaignforanindependentbritai.... The full edition of Flexcit can be downloaded from www.eureferendum.com.

here's the 1/2 hour video about it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfEo_TNllk4

The "Leave" campagne is fully aware of it, yet chooses to ignore it in favor of supplying weak strawman arguments the "Remain" campagne can knock down easily, telling me the official "Leavers" are a 5th column for the corrupt UK political estasblishment, who are clearly not going to allow us to leave under any circumstances.

 

[Rob Cowell]

The best exit strategy I've seen has been is called "Flexit" Flexible exit - you can download it at http://www.eureferendum.com/

Thanks for linking that. Chapter 7 is a very good read.

 

[Chris]

I have scanned through the posts so forgive me if this has been said, but can we have a referendum on whether we should have a referendum, because the answer from me would be NO.

We pay for politicians to run this country on our behalf. No matter which party you vote for there will be a government. Not having one isn't an option on the ballot. So we don't vote for taxation rates, price of fuel, cuts and so on, so why are we getting to say in or out of the EU? I am suspicious that actually we're getting a choice so that whatever f*** results from either option the response will be

"Well it was your choice"

I must have missed the detailed adult debate on the actual consequences of either option. People will vote based on petty personal perspective in my view. This is more than being about run by Johnny Foreigner, straight cucumbers, red tape and daft stories. I certainly don't know what the right answer is. My VIEW is that we should stay in simply because we know what we're getting. Opting out will be new territory and could be worse than the devil we know. But what's technically right, I don't have a clue.

Original question said don't debate - just say yes or no. But I don't think I can based on lack of very clear detail from the children we elected to make this decision for us in the first place.

 

[clivehorridge]

I have scanned through the posts so forgive me if this has been said, but can we have a referendum on whether we should have a referendum, because the answer from me would be NO.

We pay for politicians to run this country on our behalf. No matter which party you vote for there will be a government. Not having one isn't an option on the ballot. So we don't vote for taxation rates, price of fuel, cuts and so on, so why are we getting to say in or out of the EU? I am suspicious that actually we're getting a choice so that whatever f*** results from either option the response will be

"Well it was your choice"

I must have missed the detailed adult debate on the actual consequences of either option. People will vote based on petty personal perspective in my view. This is more than being about run by Johnny Foreigner, straight cucumbers, red tape and daft stories. I certainly don't know what the right answer is. My VIEW is that we should stay in simply because we know what we're getting. Opting out will be new territory and could be worse than the devil we know. But what's technically right, I don't have a clue.

Original question said don't debate - just say yes or no. But I don't think I can based on lack of very clear detail from the children we elected to make this decision for us in the first place.

Agree entirely Chris (see post #64)

 

[Chris]

Ha ha, yes nearly word for word. I rushed the last posts and obviously didn't read yours because you're a foreigner and intent on trying to enter our country and take our jobs.

 

[clivehorridge]

Ha ha, yes nearly word for word. I rushed the last posts and obviously didn't read yours because you're a foreigner and intent on trying to enter our country and take our jobs.

Rumbled