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MOT failure

My 80 has never been on a roller brake test, only ever a tapley meter brake test, the mot tech takes the vehicle for a drive and tests the brakes that way.
I am led to believe that it is not possible to roller brake test a full time 4x4 as it will drive out of the rollers if only two wheels are tested.
 
Marvellous Old Toyota!

No, seriously it's a Ministry Of Transport test

Andy
 
Simply pulling the callipers and moving the pistons could be enough to free them as would have moving and checking the brake pads are not stuck, as I said the machines are quite sensitive. The 80 can go on a rolling road if the differential lever is in neutral, but this would not affect side to side imbalance anyway. The days of taking cars out on the road is pretty much a thing of the past. I would most certainly raise the issue if you feel the machine was off, though TBH honest unless the few tests before and after yours showed a consistent imbalance issue, and with multiple fail certificate issued then you may struggle to get your money back. Also, if it is confirmed that your complaint is upheld, then a number of notifications have to go out to previous candidates that failed, good luck with this.

regards

Dave
 
Unless I'm mistaken, it's DOT in the UK, but old habits die hard...
 
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Don't know what the rolling test machines are like in the mainland but the new stuff they have over here have different 'modes'. One is specifically for perm 4 wheel drives as I watched him selecting it.

Can agree with Dave that pulling the calipers might have helped but there is no way my brakes where so bad that the imbalances where nearly 30% and barely 40% efficiency.

I do a lot of miles on this old car and I would know if the brakes where bollocks and for the results to nearly double on a different machine does not feel right.

Anyhow had a full caliper/disk overhaul planned for the cruiser. Can use this experience to get the cost pass the boss!:violence-stickwhac:

I guess to finish off this thread on a positive note, that is five years now my old wagon has passed MOTs without so much as an advisory.
Reckon pretty good for a 22 year old car with well over 200K miles.

Hell of a machine.


Cheers,
Dave.
 
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I wondered about the test myself as i've never been anything specific to brake balance and all the rest "front pads are getting a bit worn mate" is about as good as it gets so i googled it and did find a page offering the different categories of which there are many . I think its likely your first test was designed for a permanent 4x4 school minibus or some such as a result of operator error . Consider yourself lucky from what i read more than a few have had to call VOSA in to correct the mot centre .
 
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Must admit I am more concerned now with how they conduct these brake tests.
Surely putting a perm 4 wheeler on a rolling test can not be good.

Having either set of wheels rotating while others are stationary has to be bad.
Can guarantee the tester doesn't put the transfer box into neutral as Dave mentioned and to be honest I would never have thought to tell them to do it.

There are times I wish we had stayed in West OZ. No MOTs. Simpler life.
 
Do the guys doing the test actually know to put the transfer in neutral? DOes it matter if they dont although the manual says they should?Personally I would bleed the life the out of them the morning of the test. If it still doesnt work then could just be a worn master cylinder. do the 35s not wreck your gearing or did you change the the rear diff for an auto one.
 
Just trying to imagine how i would do this test and came up with 4 independent rollers get up to speed apply clutch and brake to see which wheel locked first , normal driving conditions .
 
The Ministry of Transport is defunct and has been for quite a while, though I'm not sure of the dates. The Department for Transport is the current body. However the MOT Test (or more simply "MOT") name has continued in use since its introduction in 1960.
 
Must admit I am more concerned now with how they conduct these brake tests.
Surely putting a perm 4 wheeler on a rolling test can not be good.

Having either set of wheels rotating while others are stationary has to be bad.
Can guarantee the tester doesn't put the transfer box into neutral as Dave mentioned and to be honest I would never have thought to tell them to do it.

There are times I wish we had stayed in West OZ. No MOTs. Simpler life.

First you need to get your head around the fact that your car is only 4WD not 'permanent 4wd', if ANY one wheel slips then the vehicle will not move or may come to a standstill except, if the wheel re-establishes traction or if there is a VC or Viscous Coupler fitted, (some have it some don't), if you do have this then there will be an attempt to drive the other propshaft but not with any real force and unlikely to push it out of the roller bay but, continued slip may cause it to overheat and be damaged but not in a few moments. Without one the car will sit there with the engine revving it's backside off and going nowhere. So, your car is ONLY four wheel drive when ALL four wheels have traction, ironic I know but that is how it is.

As a trial slip your car's transfer box into neutral, then select any gear in the gearbox, your car will not move VC or not it is not going anywhere, you have in effect uncoupled the drive from the gearbox, the gearbox drive is there but the TB is in neutral, the same effect as your gearbox in neutral. The testers here are very specific and repeat is the transfer in neutral as they do not know if your vehicle does or does not have a VC or even a LSD in the centre.

Now there are some caveats at work here for example, if you have a limited slip differential that engages when it detects 'excessive' rotational difference of one propshaft for example Honda CR-V, the ecu 'see's the front wheels spinning and yet the rear are stationary, the ECU would attempt to bring in the rear drive and push the vehicle off the rollers but the second caveat here is the rotational speed is way faster than the brake rollers speed so they are not thrown out.

Now go back to your four wheel drive 80, when you turn a corner the outer wheel travels further so the differential allows this to happen so the axle does not bind but, as you go through the corner the front wheels are going to cover more ground that the rear, so the centre differential allows the difference and prevents the drivetrain binding, and of course the rear differential allows the rear wheels to travel separate distances as well. The reason for testers to ensure your car is in neutral as they may or may not know if your car has a VC, the 80 is typical in that early versions did not have one.

In the UK I have never seen a tester take any car out to test with a meter on the floor between his legs for about 35 years, this is not meant to discredit a tester or is methods but, it may be the case he or his station is ensuring that no blame can be levelled at them if the transmission fails two hours after the MOT. I actually had a customer tell me her AC packed up due to her car being thrown out of the rollers, BTW when testing the front brakes your hand brake should be off, it prevents overload of the roller motors.

I hope that helps?

regards

Dave
 
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I meant to add but the 'EDIT' function does not work too well from this end, if I have a customer with some kind of rotational noise say for example from the wheels, so let us assume a FWD vehicle, I jack the car up with both front wheels off the floor, start the engine and select a gear and let out the clutch, invariably both front wheels will start turning but sometimes just the one, I can stop ANY one wheel and the engine will not stall due to the action of the differential, if the noise the customer complains of has stopped I have found the side where the problem is, if not I go around and stop the other wheel, you can stop ANY one wheel and the other will spin, this is exactly how your 4WD work except you have THREE differentials.

regards

Dave
 
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My MOT tester takes my 80 up the road with a brake tester on the floor. Always has done and has a modern one man test lane but has retained his original brake test rollers. They have mentioned in passing it is because it is full time 4wd. They are an old style village garage and I've taken every car I've owned to them in the last 20 years. They are doing MOTs all day, every day.

Maybe there are newer brake test rigs out there. I don't know.
 
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They are an old style village garage.

Exactly!!

If they have done it like that for years why change? And as I said not to knock the testers but they are using a failsafe method in THEIR opinion. Now look at the way 4x4's have hit the UK, twenty years ago there were a few, now every other mum at the school has one, and yet you might see the odd tester take one out but they can be tested on the rollers.

Where I live with the campo (countryside) there are shed loads of 4x4 and there is only ONE test station within at a guess a 100km radius? If they had to take every 4x4 out of the workshop to test the brakes the queues already around two or three hours and around a kilometre down the road would double.

Your garage is doing what they feel is right for your model and that is fine but definitely not necessary.

regards

Dave
 
Even with the LS Diff in the rear axle?
 
No problem with the LSD either, first your wheels are rotating at the same speed, even assuming you had one side of the brakes not working the difference in speed would be similar to you turning a corner on full lock, I cannot remember the max rotational speed of the rollers but 5 MPH comes to mind.

The real issue here is that the DOT guidelines are set out to protect the garage and of course themselves, many MOT testers are NOT mechanics, they are testers, they read the book and do as they are told but, most mechanics will know the centre or LSD will allow for a different rotational speed. I think the favourite is the vehicles with a transmission brake, as mentioned earlier in this thread, you must apply this with some care and remember you are stopping both wheels with NO slippage from the differential, and still no damage will result.

This is one of those debates that could rage on for days......weeks? The end result is some garages will use the Tapley and most will not, FWIW I have an old workshop manual somewhere and it clearly states the Discovery 4x4 can be brake tested on two wheel rollers as long as the speed does not exceed X MPH, it may be where I saw the 5MPH?

regards

Dave
 
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