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Mysteries of the R154 R151 Gearbox.......
- Thread starter Cptsideways
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Hi Rob
I have been putting off learning how to post pics but wil now do so but please be patient! These box problems I have are not typical of this box but are typical of a poor rebuilder. In fact this poor repair has written off a perfectly good box as all the internals have been damaged by incorrect assembly apart from perhaps the thrust bearing which I am still studying.
Hi Ian,
I don't have these manuals. Do you know where I can get them? The RME one is very good but does not show the syncro components in sufficient detail for correct assembly and as mine are all muddled up by the rebuilders. In fact if I could get parts at a reasonable price and a clear picture manual I could do a rebuild sticky. Rebuilding one of these is not a difficult job assuming you are used to working on mechanical things; not particularly gearboxes.
Frank
I have been putting off learning how to post pics but wil now do so but please be patient! These box problems I have are not typical of this box but are typical of a poor rebuilder. In fact this poor repair has written off a perfectly good box as all the internals have been damaged by incorrect assembly apart from perhaps the thrust bearing which I am still studying.
Hi Ian,
I don't have these manuals. Do you know where I can get them? The RME one is very good but does not show the syncro components in sufficient detail for correct assembly and as mine are all muddled up by the rebuilders. In fact if I could get parts at a reasonable price and a clear picture manual I could do a rebuild sticky. Rebuilding one of these is not a difficult job assuming you are used to working on mechanical things; not particularly gearboxes.
Frank
Have you looked at the EPC Frank? That has quite detailed blown up pictures of the parts. If you're in this afternoon I might try and pop round for a look at the carnage?
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Hi Jon
Yes call round this p.m. Bring your 'phone as I might not hear you come. In fact I've never heard anyone arrive yet !
Don't tell anyone but whilst you are here you can tell me what an EPC is.
Frank
Yes call round this p.m. Bring your 'phone as I might not hear you come. In fact I've never heard anyone arrive yet !
Don't tell anyone but whilst you are here you can tell me what an EPC is.
Frank
H151 carnage in Frank's garage 
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I'm sure I've been set up by Ian and Jon.......a right mess they've got me into.
HELP; Has anyone got a clear exploded diagram showing which way the syncro rings go round on their hubs and also which way round the hubs go back on their shafts? It is easily possible to assemble the 'box incorrectly as there is little difference in the sides of the components.
Frankl
HELP; Has anyone got a clear exploded diagram showing which way the syncro rings go round on their hubs and also which way round the hubs go back on their shafts? It is easily possible to assemble the 'box incorrectly as there is little difference in the sides of the components.
Frankl
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Hi Chris
Thanks for the help. Unfortunately this is the quality I already have but the parts are not shown in sufficient detail. e.g. Along the top row 36235B slides over 33382 but the former is handed with a groove one one side which does not show clearly enough. Even if it were 33382 is also handed and has to go on the shaft the correct way round. Again there is not sufficient detail. When I took it all to bits I did not mark the bits because looking at the chewed bronze cones I knew the syncro assemblies were assembled and put in incorrectly.
By the way these bronze syncro cones are attacked by EP oils over a long period. As far as I know a sraight 80 gearoil is no longer available so fully synthetic oil is the best replacement.
Frank
Thanks for the help. Unfortunately this is the quality I already have but the parts are not shown in sufficient detail. e.g. Along the top row 36235B slides over 33382 but the former is handed with a groove one one side which does not show clearly enough. Even if it were 33382 is also handed and has to go on the shaft the correct way round. Again there is not sufficient detail. When I took it all to bits I did not mark the bits because looking at the chewed bronze cones I knew the syncro assemblies were assembled and put in incorrectly.
By the way these bronze syncro cones are attacked by EP oils over a long period. As far as I know a sraight 80 gearoil is no longer available so fully synthetic oil is the best replacement.
Frank
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Er....Um........Er....Um.......well I'll make a clean breast of it. I was browsing through the assembly manual [the one with the poor pics] and in there is a crystal clear engineers drawing showing a cross section of each hub in turn together with its' ring and which way they go together, and also which way round they go onto their shafts. So I shall sleep soundly tonight. I'm glad the authors knew how complicated assembly would be without such a drawing.
Frank
Frank
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Another case of RTFM. I never learn.
Frank
Frank
Andrew Prince
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Does having the manual mean that fixing/putting the box back together is now do-able, Frank? Have to say that there looked like a LOT of pieces there - enough to make me think that buying a replacement would be money well spent if I ever found myself in that position! 
As Chris said, I would definitely come away with a box full of "spares" left-over after attempting to put that 'box together. 
I take my hat off to you doing this and I am following with great interest!
Cheers,
As Chris said, I would definitely come away with a box full of "spares" left-over after attempting to put that 'box together. I take my hat off to you doing this and I am following with great interest!
Cheers,
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Hi Andrew
Yes I am compltely confident that the box is an easy one to assemble now I have an engineers drawing of the parts I was not sure of. What is needed;
Full set of bearings
Full set of seals
Full set of snap rings including all the various alternative sizes
Full? set of syncro rings
Oh yes Jons' press for 1 bearing
How much the parts will cost will determine whether or not I go ahead.
Obviously my garage looks wrecked but all parts will be cleaned and inspected.
I shall lay them all out on a white sheet in their order of position whether or not I go ahead and take a pic.
Frank
Yes I am compltely confident that the box is an easy one to assemble now I have an engineers drawing of the parts I was not sure of. What is needed;
Full set of bearings
Full set of seals
Full set of snap rings including all the various alternative sizes
Full? set of syncro rings
Oh yes Jons' press for 1 bearing
How much the parts will cost will determine whether or not I go ahead.
Obviously my garage looks wrecked but all parts will be cleaned and inspected.
I shall lay them all out on a white sheet in their order of position whether or not I go ahead and take a pic.
Frank
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Just a word which has crossed my mind for anyone changing their syncro cones to improve a gearchange. I am told so often "Oh that doesn't work".
Some types of boxes from new have poor change characteristics which cannot be overcome but the following advice applies to this type of box whose gearchange has got worse and those well behaved boxes which now have a poor change.
The tapered steel hub forming part of the gearwheel which the broze syncro cone grips will have become very polished and grooved to an extent. Known as worn. When a new bronze syncro ring is fitted it will not have the same micro profile as the worn hub so the hub needs to be "glaze busted" which could be done entirely by hand with fine emery paper or on a lathe by hand. The paper removes the top brittle and shiny surface of the hub but the fine wear ridges still remain. Nothing can be done about these ridges but when a new bronze ring is fitted the roughened steel hub will wear the ring to the correct profile and the hopefully improved gearchange will be the best obtainable from a rebuilt box. The ring will wear for only a short period as it will repolish the steel whilst very slightly wearing away taking on its' new profile. Very slow wear will then take place as the ring wears out at its normal rate.
Hope this helps someone.
Frank
Some types of boxes from new have poor change characteristics which cannot be overcome but the following advice applies to this type of box whose gearchange has got worse and those well behaved boxes which now have a poor change.
The tapered steel hub forming part of the gearwheel which the broze syncro cone grips will have become very polished and grooved to an extent. Known as worn. When a new bronze syncro ring is fitted it will not have the same micro profile as the worn hub so the hub needs to be "glaze busted" which could be done entirely by hand with fine emery paper or on a lathe by hand. The paper removes the top brittle and shiny surface of the hub but the fine wear ridges still remain. Nothing can be done about these ridges but when a new bronze ring is fitted the roughened steel hub will wear the ring to the correct profile and the hopefully improved gearchange will be the best obtainable from a rebuilt box. The ring will wear for only a short period as it will repolish the steel whilst very slightly wearing away taking on its' new profile. Very slow wear will then take place as the ring wears out at its normal rate.
Hope this helps someone.
Frank
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No I have not done anything yet. We've had builders in for a couple of months and I am tidying up. Probably a job for the winter. I shall conclude this post whether I abandon the box or rebuild it.
Re the bits I will go for Toyo parts except for the bearings.
Cheers
Frank
Re the bits I will go for Toyo parts except for the bearings.
Cheers
Frank
Just to bump this thread for an update and remind Frank where it is, now you've seen pictures of one gearbox spread about Frank's garage, imagine it with 2 gearboxes in bits ... There were still issues with determining correct orientation of some parts on Ian's old box and the several sets of pictures and workshop manuals found contradicted each other so the best solution was to take apart a known good box for reference 
Cue conversations about where such a box might be sourced 
and Frank's 80 was soon up on stands and minus its gearbox 
It has been completely stripped and rebuilt and still seems to work 
very interesting and educational that was. Ian's old box is still in bits waiting for some new parts but we do now know which way round it all goes 
Cue conversations about where such a box might be sourced and Frank's 80 was soon up on stands and minus its gearbox It has been completely stripped and rebuilt and still seems to work very interesting and educational that was. Ian's old box is still in bits waiting for some new parts but we do now know which way round it all goes
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Yes, Ians' box annoyed me so much I decided to take my perfectly good one apart to find out which way round the bits go. Perfectly good? Well not quite as it had a difficult 2nd gear even when I aquired it with only 30,000 miles on it. So I thought I would improve the synchro whilst in bits. On inspection the cones were not seating correctly and there was not much gripping action. As there was plenty of wear left I decided to lap the cones together with fine grinding paste and within a little time they were seating well and had amazing gripping action. I was so impressed I decided to do 3rd which just nicked on the way in. Unfortunately this has made no improvement to the gearchange whatsoever. I am wondering if these h151f boxes are like this from new? Can anyone else give any light on this? 1995 24valve UK.
Frank
Frank
