Don't like the adverts?  Click here to remove them

Still looking for H151 gearbox grinding noise

Dave2000

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
3,189
Country Flag
spain
Some may have picked up on the grapevine that my first ever use of a recovery truck in my motoring career was for my 80. I had decided to use this option as the noise my (or what I think is) gearbox was making some horrible noises. In the event this might help with future diagnosis I will recap at length, move to another post or go get a coffee and start reading. Late last year I could hear a slight whirring noise just as I would roll to a stop perhaps for set of traffic lights for example, the noise was there whether the engine was running or not and regardless of whether in any gear or neutral. I had removed prop shafts fore and aft and drove to see if the noise remained, it did, I had also ruled out wheel bearings, they had been stripped/cleaned/and refitted or replaced where necessary late last year. I ruled out the differentials going by the central position of the noise, also with the prop shafts removed they would not echo noise towards the centre of the car. The noise had to be coming from the gearbox or the transfer box, Since buying the car 2nd gear has always been reluctant and virtually impossible when cold to select going down the gears, up has never usually been a problem. knowing I already had synchromesh issues I decided I would leave for awhile until the opportunity to replace or repair. When I had a bit of time I removed the gearstick gaiters and reaffirmed the noise was gear or transfer box.

Having put the issue to the back of my mind I was just parking the car in a multi-storey car par, given the length of the 80 and the modest size of Spanish car park spaces I was rolling very gently towards the wall of my chosen spot, about a foot or so from the wall the car stopped short and rolled backwards a little! It was as if I had hit something with a wheel, I reversed back looking for something I had not seen, there was nothing, I drove back into the parking space and all was well :?

Later in the day the same thing happened again rolling to a stop at a set of traffic lights, the car sort of hit an invisible rubber wall, it came to stop and rolled back, in my 'minds eye' it was as if two gears were meshing out of synch.

I used the car for a further few days without incidence although on constant alert, then came an incidence where I used a 'Rambla', these are dry river beds used in Spain as shortcuts between small villages etc. WARNING! NEVER use these during the rainy season as you could find yourself washed out to sea and very dead after a flash flood...NO BS!

Anyway I digress, a I completed my shortcut I started to climb out of the Rambla when there was a horrendous grinding noise! I stopped immediately and rolled backwards into the Rambla, I jumped out and had a look underneath and could see nothing broken, no evidence of oil etc. I drove around on the rough ground for a few minutes trying to make the noise repeat itself and nothing! I made the attempt to climb out of the Rambla a second time and although the 80 climbed out just as it reached the top the grinding noise came again. I drove it gently to a petrol garage (an ideal way to pinpoint your location) and called for the 'grua' or breakdown truck to you, recovery service is compulsory in Spain and so is included in your insurance.

Only now have I had the time to get the gearbox out and see what I can see, I stripped off the casings and removed the gear cluster and so far nothing, no broken teeth, no metal in the oil, no play anywhere in the bearings, NOTHING!!!!

So I will start during next week to pull the gears of the shafts to see if there is anything amiss there. I am wondering if my assumption (guided by the noisy synchro) that it is the gearbox, as you rarely hear of the transfer box being suspect on an 80 and in fact have never replaced one, it has always been the gearbox that has been the problem....so watch this space, if you have any ideas then feel free to throw them this way...TIA.

regards

Dave
 
Last edited:
Have you checked front diff, axles & birfields/cv joints?
 
Hi Dave

You know there is a good Sticky for gearbox? With plenty of pics for when you get stuck. But take plenty of pics of yours just in case it's diferent.

Frank
 
P.S.

If the oil is clean you are almost defo' barking up the wrong tree. It might pay you to check other parts as taking the gear cluster apart by yourself will be a bit difficult.

Frank
 
I'd take a wager the problem is within the transfer case. The second gear issue will not be related to the problems and symptoms you have mentioned. I'm not surprised the oil is clean cos apart from the second gear syncro issue there was nothing wrong with the box. In a gearbox if there is a fault it is noisy all the time so a n intermittent fault in the transfer box sounds the case. Did this fault appear in both high and low box? When you removed the props did you remove both and get towed with the engine running to eliminate all the running gear except the g/box / trans/box?
Keep us posted on this one Dave, I am very interested in the outcome of this one as are one or two others.

Andy
 
Hi, all sorry for any delay in replying, as per my PM box I cannot seem to get an email notifying me of a post?

Anyway, to bring all up to date,

grantw, definitely not axles/birfs/diffs etc. I removed the rear prop shaft and lock the centre diff and the noise was there without the vehicle moving. I refitted prop shaft and removed front one, same noise. So the noise is there whether moving or not. To help you 'visualise' the noise, imagine the primary shaft splines or teeth inside the driven clutch plate having worn to the point they are rotating inside each other....if that helps? Having checked that the drive shafts were not rotating inside the hubs was when I decided to remove the prop shafts.

Frank, you have PM and yes I have seen the sticky it is a great job, I did take some pics on route as well, only query I have thus far is one of the selector shafts had a pin and ball bearing drop out but no spring...so far, I had run out of time so will look into it further.

Andycruiseer, tried in high and low range and it was exactly the same, the fact that neither prop shaft turns when the noise is present then yes G/box or T/box. So that will rule out everything outside of the gearbox/transfer boxes. Funny as I am typing this I am thinking I did not look at the clutch driven plate teeth.....grrrrh!!

But I did check the primary shaft AND the output shaft on the gearbox and all appeared well. I may be going to the garage tomorrow, I will get under the car and check the driven plate teeth as well, to be honest I do not think it is that as that would not have caused the car to pull up short when coasting to a stop.

Thanks for the input all

regards

Dave
 
Last edited:
Don't like the adverts?  Click here to remove them
OK and an update, unfortunately my gear puller collapsed whilst trying to get the reverse gear off however, I have found that the input shaft has somewhat excessive end float....8 mm's worth!!

I have uploaded 4 pics but unsure if you can make out the Typex© marks on the hub/synchro? Anyway, the input shaft can be pulled forward (away from gear cluster)8mm, that just cannot be right. I am thinking there is (was) a gear in there that has stripped and allowing the input shaft to move away from the output shaft. I did have a look at some of the pics Jon and Frank put up but cannot quite make out what is going on there, the synchro ring is flapping about like a pr*ck in a shirt sleeve!

Hmmm, note to self go out next week and buy a new puller!

regards

Dave
 

Attachments

  • 1 A RS KB.jpg
    1 A RS KB.jpg
    19 KB · Views: 328
  • 1 B RS KB.jpg
    1 B RS KB.jpg
    19 KB · Views: 316
  • 1 C RS KB.jpg
    1 C RS KB.jpg
    19.7 KB · Views: 441
  • 1 D RS KB.jpg
    1 D RS KB.jpg
    19.7 KB · Views: 321
Last edited:
Read the mail Dave.
Wifi is pants as away ATM. Ill reply off the girlfriends phone later on or Tomoz

Cheers
 
Hi Dave

The fore/aft movement in your input shaft is normal. When inside the casing it is held in place by the bearing which closes it up together. If you push the shaft inwards this is where it runs and the synchro ring should be as the others.

If there is a selector spring missing it could well be your problem. When going slowly it is very possible that another gear is engaging in addition to the one you have selected with the gear lever. This would seize the gearbox temporarily and you would "spring" to a halt rather than "hit a concrete wall". If an additional gear tried to go in whilst driving faster there would be a grinding noise. This is the noise of the dogs on the gearwheels grating but their speeds are to high to allow actual engagement.

I think your symptoms well tie in with the above.

I assume it was the horizontal spring that was missing? If so through the system of balls and pins it affects every gear in the box. If you have not removed any selector rods yet I would build the cluster back up with the missing spring installed. Then try selecting each gear in turn and try forcing other selector rods to move into all other gears which should be impossible at the same time. i.e. select first gear then try forcing the other rods to select 3,4,5 and reverse. Then try selecting 2nd and try 3,4,5 and reverse. Then select 3rd and try selecting 1,2,5 and reverse.

Frank
 
Read the mail Dave.
Wifi is pants as away ATM. Ill reply off the girlfriends phone later on or Tomoz

Cheers

:laughing-rolling:, I misread that, I thought it said WIFE is away ATM, I'll reply off the girlfriends phone later. :oops:
 
Hi Frank and thanks for the reply, the spring to a halt you describe is dead right, it is like hitting a big block of foam. If I select reverse and go back a short way (perhaps two or three feet?), then the car drives normally for awhile, it may not do the 'foam rubber' stop for awhile then do it a couple of times on the trot. The spring I mentioned that appears to be missing is from the selector area. I had removed the various plugs holding in the springs and ball bearing/detent rods and removed all one at a time with a magnetic pickup, the same as I would on any other gearbox however, it seems there must have been another ball bearing/detent rod 'in tandem' being held in place by another ball bearing/rod if that makes sense? I do not think a spring was actually missing prior to me pulling it apart.

I have already removed the selector rods et al, and now have made an attempt to get the large reverse gear off, this resulted in a puller that has pulled many gears from many shafts over the years simply collapse! As I have a problem with 2nd gear synchro now mate I might as well press on with the dismantling, I have access to a mega ton press for reassembly.

Thanks again for input, still hoping I can find something more tangible to point at, the row it made when it started grinding was unbelievable.......I know, you don't believe me! 8>))

regards

Dave
 
Last edited:
There is a 2nd gear spacer that collpases on the the R154 gearboxes, the LC one is an upgrade. Might be worth checking it out
 
Thanks for that Cptsideways, I will have more time next week to have another go, I will get back to the forum as and when.

regards

Dave
 
If you look at the diagrams in the sticky you should see all the balls and sliding pins. One ball is very well hidden between reverse and 5th rod and is in the sliding housing that covers them. Not the gearbox housing. Missing this ball out may cause your problem.

Frank
 
Hi and thanks for that Frank, I just have not had the time to get in the garage, I have however managed to get my little van out of the repair shop after putting it in the barrier a couple of weeks back...don't ask. So I am still busy, I will get back asap.

regards

Dave
 
Update time, I spent an hour down the garage with new puller and got to getting the cluster apart, all but most of the gears are off now and I have only found one problem. I cannot remember which gear it was (perhaps third?), the bearing that the gear runs on has split into two pieces! Now this was an absolute ba*tard to pull off, so was the gear seized and not sliding bringing about the two gear selection Frank mentioned above? Thus far I have seen absolutely no evidence of gear damage bearing in mind that the eventual result of my testing was with the car idling and the three diff locks on I could select any gear and/or HI/LO and let the clutch out with no vehicle movement and the loud grinding noise. Surely this would have left some evidence/metal shavings etc. So I am going to the workshop to press off the final gear and order a bearing set and a second gear synchromesh cone and put it back together, I am also thinking that perhaps the transfer box is up the wall as per Andy's thinking?

Of course I did check the oil in the T case but again no metal, lack of time and a recent family tragedy will delay further investigations but I will report in asap, any further thoughts?
regards

Dave
 
Hi Dave

At least one of the needle bearings comes in two pieces as new so look carefully to see if it is in fact broken or was made like it.

I don't know how an actual gearwheel would be difficult to pull off. They should just fall off the needle bearing. The synchro hubs can be difficult to pull off.

The gearwheels do not slide in relation to the shaft they are on. All the gearwheels are in mesh with their opposites constantly. The synchro rings slide on their hubs and over the dogs of the gearwheel they are selecting and thus lock that wheel to the shaft.

Very difficult to think what is wrong. A few pictures of what you think may be wrong would help.

Frank
 
Hi Dave

Just realised what you might have meant and if so I Agree. If the gearwheel was in fact seized onto it's shaft by a faulty bearing, or something else, the box would effectively be in that gear. When you selected another gear you would in effect be driving with 2 gears engaged. Never seen it before but if the gearwheel was stuck to it's shaft with the synchro ring not over it that might be your problem.

Frank
 
Back
Top