Handbrake Solutions

Yea look at me reviving an old topic that has been gone over and over so many time that you are all board with it. Plus I am sure Uncle Chris will slap my wrists for dragging handbrakes up again but.

After having a brief chat with Ben about his X-Brake I am unsure as to weather to go this route. I spoke to the guys from x-Eng today adn they were very helpful. They have offered to give me the CAD drawings for the 70 series x-Brake and also the disc, caliper and cable to do some r&d into a version for the 90 series.

But after talking to ben he was not impressed with the setup so I have been looking into other options.

Basically I am sick of having to adjust my handbrake on a monthly basis and would happily pay at least 500 quid to not have too. (TBH it more like every couple of weeks). So ben put an idea in my head of adding another set of calipers (200,400,600 rover units) to the disc and replacing the slave pull with a twin or single to twin cable.

Then whilst having a scour and also a chat with a friend who is a rally driver I thought about a hydraulic conversion. It doesn't seem that difficult.

So moving forward I am going to get the bits off X-eng, also a free set of rear calipers from a rover 400 and also one of these http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4092. I will report back as to the easiest to install Vs braking ability.

Any comments or thoughts are very much welcomed

Thanks
Chris

Chris Green90 said:

Any comments or thoughts are very much welcomed

Thanks
Chris

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You do one of these for an 80 and I will be very interested.

conversion or x-brake. I am thinking the conversion is the way to go but to do it for an 80 I will need someone willing to help out with a truck for some dimensions. as for a conversion, once I have seen how it performs I am sure Chris will adapt it for the 80 series.

Good old Ben, you can tell he's had one to many Vits with the ol' Rover calliper conversion

Not sure if you've ever met my m8 Giles, but like Ben he fitted an X-Brake style item to his LR90 and it was soon off and in the bin!!!!

i'm pretty certain that a hydraulic hand brake conversion will not pass an MOT from what I can remember of my MKI & MKII Ford Escort Mexico and RS2000 days. Hey I'm born and bred Essex and live just a 10min drive from Rettendon!!!

Best suggestion that I've seen on here to do with the constant hassle of having to adjust the handbrake is the one suggesting drilling a hole in the the back of the rear hub level with the self adjuster cog. No need to jack up the motor and remove the wheels, just lay under the truck with a medium flat blade screwdriver and a couple of clicks, job done

Look, I know how to adjust them, but I don't know how to stop them going crap after 5 mins off road. So, let's hear it.

Now, I think that hydraulic handbrakes are 'illegal' in terms of normal MOT standards - if it's the only form of parking brake.

I can see two options. Some kind of cable disconnect that simply drops the tension out of the rear cable so that it doesn't pull and stretch off road. Or some way of adjusting the little cog wheel from the outside with the wheel still on.

Them's me thoughts. I would like a prop shaft brake for sure. Maybe a motorbike disc or something. I haven't really laid on my back and looked up with this in mind. But I could certainly engineer something.

Chris

Chris said:

But I could certainly engineer something.

Chris

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Do that Chris and I'll be first in the queue.

Surely, As far as I can see the biggest hurdle of the prop brace is mounting the caliper and finding a disc/caliper combination that easily fits. Am I wrong??? Don't want to be shooting off down the wrong route.

I had no idea HY was not legit as far as MOT so that rules that one out. (Ya learn alot on here don't ya)

T'other Chris

Chas, designing and making it up are totally different things. I am sure I can make one - if there is a design. As several of us who make things have said before whether it's sliders, drawers, winch bumpers etc, the making it is the easy bit!

I'll have a look though. As the brake is not intended to slow the vehicle like the main brakes do, it doesn't have to be special material. Although a machined down disc would work. It's the caliper bit that needs some brain power.

Chris

I wonder if it could be electrically operated. I have spare window motors etc that could be used to wind a pad onto a disc. As I don't have an aerial, I could use the up down button for on and off.

Chris

Chris said:

I wonder if it could be electrically operated. I have spare window motors etc that could be used to wind a pad onto a disc. As I don't have an aerial, I could use the up down button for on and off.

Chris

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Before the hydro idea was quashed I had thought of that. a simple solonoid to engage pressure into the braking system would be ideal.

Out of curiosity (and not wanting to take the thread to far OT) why is Hydro not leagal. Anyone know???

Well because if it leaked when parked on a hill, the car would run away. More prone to fail than a cable and ratchet. Also most rally style HHBs are a 'fly-off' design. IE they have no ratchet for doing HB turns.

Hmm wondering now about air operated clamp. I have a tank on board with 150 psi. Air solenoids are common. Switch operated air clamp. Air could replace hydraulic fluid in a caliper. But also I think I could machine and air operated piston quite easily.

Ideas, ideas.

C

Chris said:

Well because if it leaked when parked on a hill, the car would run away. More prone to fail than a cable and ratchet.

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That'll be why then. Thanks Chris

I'm not sure why the handbrake needs adjusting so much and can honestly say i have little idea how they work , but lots of new cars nowadays have electric handbrakes that just work on a switch . I only mention it coz obviously they can get through M.O.T and i wondered if shortening the cable to an absolute minimum and fixing it to an electric motor might remove its ability to stretch very much . Just an idea that someone who knows what he's talking about might elaborate on ?

It appears not to be the fact that the cable stretches but that the adjustment screws, cogs, whatever they are ten to move of there own free will for no good reason what so ever.

There must be another vehicle out there somewhere with a similar size disc that hase some other way of working the HB other than disc in drum. I will keep looking.

If you want to go air or solenoid operated - I believe the design is a large spring holding the pads on the disc, and the solenoid forces them back off. That way if the solenoid fails, the brake comes on - yes it's an issue if you're in motion and it fails, but failures usually occur during actuation, so only likely to be an issue when the brake is applied or removed.

As Chris said, Hydro handbrakes can leak and lead to the car running away. We usually build the rally cars so they have either dual handbrakes, or if using a single lever (required for road rallies) then the lever operates both cables and hydro mechanism - for MOT just remove the link between lever and hydraulic cylinder.

I was thinking about measuring the internals of the drum and seeing if I can source an alternative mech that fits in the hole - quite probably there's something out there that will do the job and retrofitting a pair of cables (probably need to be custom cables) is a straightforward job. I think the only awkward part that may present itself is going to be the means to put the cable through the backing plate, but there's ways and means to do that (I've got a few spare back axles that I could always chop apart!)

As Chris said in his first post I'm not impressed with the X-ENG, X brake! Its shit!

So my suggestion to Chris was, presuming 90's have rear discs? which I think they do.

Was to fit another calliper, a cable operated rear calliper, from for example a Rover 400/600. Their are lots of other cars with cable operated rear callipers. The rover ones were the first ones that sprang to mind. (Yes Steven, from the old suzuki days. )

So keep the original hydraulic calliper for the rear brakes, and have a second calliper mounted just for a handbrake.

The reason for cable and not hydraulic is as others have said, so that it will pass an MOT.

Just an idea, and I see no reason why it shouldn't work.

I get pretty sick of adjusting the handbrake on my truck.

So I may try again to get the X-brake working at some point.

It'll be interesting to see the solution. 6months and 6000 miles of daily use, and the handbrake on my 95 is fine. No adjustment needed, no creep, it just works - I guess I must be lucky!

I think the main thing to do is use it - if I pull up to lights, I'll slip the auto-box into neutral and apply the handbrake. I also apply the handbrake when I park up (not just relying on "P" to hold the car)

majic79 said:

I think the main thing to do is use it - if I pull up to lights, I'll slip the auto-box into neutral and apply the handbrake. I also apply the handbrake when I park up (not just relying on "P" to hold the car)

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Oh the joys of an auto box. Being in a manual kinda make this even more important. I green lane at least once a month and then do about 1000 road miles in between so could really do with a handbrake that works. Even from an laning perspective you have to concentrate so much more with having the HB to fall back on. I can balance the brake and clutch and jump onto the gas but it is sooooo much easier with the HB.

I really only want the air, oil, gas, string, plasma operated handbrake for off road action. Happy to service the other one, once per year for the MOT. This is about control on steep climbs for me. I like the idea of an air actuator. Electric air solenoid opens on the switch, air rushes in, applies the brake. When power is released, solenoid closes and vents. Just as it does on an ARB air locker. With some form of cranked arm, an air piston should be able to exert quite some force. OR, which I quite like, have a cable operated system like the X Eng, but use an air ram to pull the cable.

Chris