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Blanking off EGR valve

Graham

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OK, some might call me stupid, but if it works on the 80 series, adn the 90 series, why can't it work by blanking off on the D4-d engine.
I am sure the engine will be a whole lot happier breathing 100% clean air, than say a 25% / 75% mix of clean and recycled.
I know my wallett would, as I am sure mpg would improve.

Was it Gary or Crispin that done some recent cleaning work on the EGR valve?

Can it be stopped from opening, so the exhaust stays exhaust, and does not get drawn in again for 're burning'?

Graham
 
That was Crispin. I'd be interested to her the answer. I think the 120 may have a slight problem with the engine mounts - I think they use the same vacuum system?

Cheers
 
what is it meant to do?

i forget?
i did try it on my LC90 when i got it, .22 airgun pellet (perfect size fit) in the rubber hose, zipties to hold it in place
but never noticed any difference in vehicle performance!
 
The Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve is something they invented to make a diesel more environmentally friendly.

A diesel engine is in fact a simple air pump.
It sucks air in and pumps it out, always the same volume per 2 revolutions of the crankshaft. There is nothing much restrictive in the intake.

When idling along and with power to spare you actually don't need all that nice fresh air to burn the limited amount of fuel you're injecting.
So they reroute some of the exhaust gasses, mix them with the fresh intake air and give the exhaust gasses a secondary burning.
This results in more environmentally friendly engines causing less harmfull exhaust gasses.

First generation of vacuum operated EGR valves were either on or off.
And most of the time whilst driving they were off. So when you blank them, you barely notice any difference.
They can sometimes remain lodged open, so when you put the pedal down some turbo pressure is lost and you get the black smoke upon acceleration.
Blanking off is a cheap fix, replacing the EGR valve will keep your engine happy.

These days with those electronically operated EGR valves they can adjust how fast and how far the EGR valve opens.
This provides another variable the engine manegment computer can adjust and play with.
And when blanking off a modern day EGR valve you'll probably get that "check engine" light coming on more often.

Why does your modern day engine like the EGR valve to be working.
Well think of it as a fast working thermostat.
Using warmer exhaust gasses mixed with cold intake air is another way of keeping your engine at optimum combustion temperature when needed.
 
A couple of slight oversimplifications there, Chris ;)

chriscolleman said:
When idling along and with power to spare you actually don't need all that nice fresh air to burn the limited amount of fuel you're injecting.
So they reroute some of the exhaust gasses, mix them with the fresh intake air and give the exhaust gasses a secondary burning.
This results in more environmentally friendly engines causing less harmfull exhaust gasses.
The last part is true but your description is not quite right. There are 2 sources of "bad" emissions - products originating from the air and products from the fuel. Air is mostly nitrogen, which is fairly inert but in a hot combustion process it reacts/burns with oxygen and forms NOx gases, which are much worse greenhouses gases than CO2, for example. The fuel provides carbon which reacts to form carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, plus unburnt carbon particles known as particulates (the black stuff in diesel smoke).
The "secondary" burning of the exhaust gases doesn't achieve that much because most of the exhaust gas consists of fully combusted products. What happens is that there is much less oxygen in the exhaust gas (for obvious reasons) so in the EGRecycle this reduces the combustion temperature because there is less oxygen in the fuel-air mix. Lower temperatures mean less NOx formation, which is is a good thing. Of course lower temperatures mean lower combustion efficiency, which means lower power output and a less complete burn of the fuel, which is a bad thing. So the EGR process also helps burn partly combusted fuel that is recycled to reduce fuel-generated pollutants and particulates, so the theory goes.

Kind of a vicious circle though - you use EGR to reduce NOx but lower O2 feed into the engine means an increase of other pollutants, which means you have to recycle these in an attempt to fully burn these pollutants or Mr EU gets upset. But EGR only recycles part of the total exhaust volume, so you're pumping out partly burnt fuel (more so than a non-EGR engine!) but your NOx emissions are slightly reduced.
Good compromise? I'm not so sure. There are much more efficient solutions out there. EGR is NOT the diesel's friend IMHO - it requires a lot of compromises on the engine design.

chriscolleman said:
Why does your modern day engine like the EGR valve to be working.
Well think of it as a fast working thermostat.
Using warmer exhaust gasses mixed with cold intake air is another way of keeping your engine at optimum combustion temperature when needed.
Huh? Thermostat? Optimum combustion temperature is HOT but of course engine tolerances and metal properties limit how hot this can sensibly go. As mentioned previously, EGR reduces the combustion temperature because it reduces the O2 content of the fuel-air charge, so it is the opposite of optimum. Your engine is kept at optimum operating temp by the water-cooling system. Remember a diesel is a compression ignition system, so the fuel-air mix has to be compressed to make the gas hot enough to burn (anyone remember the Ideal Gas Law? technically Charles's Law :ugeek: ) If the charge doesn't get hot enough, it doesn't burn. The heat comes from compression, not the engine temperature or the temperature of the feed gases, be they fresh air or exhaust gases.

Sorry if this is the uber-geek explanation but I wanted to clarify to avoid people misunderstanding what this is about.

Cheers,
 
Hi all,
Some good techincal answers there.
The answer I am looking for is purly a 'financial' answer.
ie, will I go further on a litre on diesel whit the EGR blaked / welded shut / disabled, or whatever.

To be honest, I care more about my wallet than about the emmissions right now.
I need get my priorities right, not some goverment, who is more interested in emissions.

Sorry guys, I need all the miles out of this expensive diesel now.

Graham
Yes, selfish is also a word I understand.
 
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Graham said:
Hi all,
Some good techincal answers there.
The answer I am looking for is purly a 'financial' answer.
ie, will I go further on a litre on diesel whit the EGR blaked / welded shut / disabled, or whatever.
Yes! Although there may be a long-term price to pay, as Chris points out it's a modern electronic system and may not like the valve being blanked off. The flip side is removing the EGR can only improve the cleanliness of the oil and thus reduce the chance of the D4D going pop.
How much fuel you'll save, I don't know :mrgreen:
 
@andrew
It's been quite a while since I had to endure thermodynamics and gass laws.
p.V=m.R.T if I remember :think:

Indeed quite a lot of oversimplification on my part, there is some very decent technical literature out there concerning EGR systems.
First these systems were implemented solely for the environmental benefits, but engine designers wouldn't be ubergeeks if they didn't try to seek some benefits.
Otherwise we would still be driving the model T Ford in black :lol:

If it has got an EGR valve it will be most happy with the valve in perfect working order.

Maximum fuel efficiency isn't a cruisers strong point, large square area, heavy vehicle, weird tyres, complicated driveline.
Keeping every system up to spec will help a lot, but really you need another vehicle if you want to cover long distances with a minimum of fuel.
 
Agreed there, Chris :thumbup:

chriscolleman said:
If it has got an EGR valve it will be most happy with the valve in perfect working order.
Yes, this is the point that I was trying to make to Graham - with the fancier electronic systems, what effect deactivating the EGR valve will have on the engine management system is an unknown and a potential risk of damage because of the EMS reacting to the loss of feedback & control from the EGR. I do think that deactivating the EGR will improve economy.

Cheers,
 
Andrew Prince said:
What happens is that there is much less oxygen in the exhaust gas (for obvious reasons) so in the EGRecycle this reduces the combustion temperature because there is less oxygen in the fuel-air mix.
Less oxygen means running your running a rich fuel to air ration which essentially means more unburnt carbon and more CO. Both of these are harmful to us (carbon particles cause respiratory problems and don't do asthmatics any favours and CO is poisonous). This is a a graph showing what happens if you change the air fuel ratio from stoichiometric, not sure if it applies to diesels as well.
af_effects.jpg
 
Rob said:
Less oxygen means running you're running a rich fuel to air ratio which essentially means more unburnt carbon and more CO. Both of these are harmful to us (carbon particles cause respiratory problems and don't do asthmatics any favours and CO is poisonous).
Correct, Rob! :thumbup:

Hence, my comment here:
Andrew Prince said:
Kind of a vicious circle though - you use EGR to reduce NOx but lower O2 feed into the engine means an increase of other pollutants, which means you have to recycle these in an attempt to fully burn these pollutants or Mr EU gets upset. But EGR only recycles part of the total exhaust volume, so you're pumping out partly burnt fuel (more so than a non-EGR engine!) but your NOx emissions are slightly reduced.
And my comments about EGR being a crude solution to one problem (NOx) that causes additional problems (CO and particulates).

To continue the tangent, I believe the Selective Catalytic Reduction (aka SCR) route using a urea solution (AdBlue) is superior as a technology. This technology treats the NOx in the exhaust gas and leaves the engine alone. This means that you can optimise engine performance without much concern for NOx formation, so aiming for as complete a burn as possible to reduce CO and particulate production, which typically means increased NOx production. The NOx then gets broken down in the exhaust into into N2 and water by reacting with ammonia produced from the decomposition of urea. N2 and H20 exist naturally in the atmosphere so effectively zero pollution from NOx, and CO and particulates are reduced substantially too. Yes, a small amount of additional CO2 is added via the urea but CO2 is the least bad pollutant in this system.

(SCR systems do require some additional hardware on the vehicle in terms of a catalytic converter and a urea-solution tank, and the tank has to be topped up with urea solution every so often. EGR is largely a fit and forget system requiring minimal maintenance by comparison)

:ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek:
 
Andrew Prince said:
Agreed there, Chris :thumbup:

chriscolleman said:
If it has got an EGR valve it will be most happy with the valve in perfect working order.
Yes, this is the point that I was trying to make to Graham - with the fancier electronic systems, what effect deactivating the EGR valve will have on the engine management system is an unknown and a potential risk of damage because of the EMS reacting to the loss of feedback & control from the EGR. I do think that deactivating the EGR will improve economy.

Cheers,

In theory removing an EGR valve should improve economy.
When the EGR valve wasn't behaving on my BMW commuter I delved into the literature and tried running it for a month with the EGR blocked off from the exhaust. Black smoke on acceleration was immediatly cured.

I noted my fuel consumption for a month, then installed a brand new valve and again noted fuel consumption. Results weren't very conclusive and varied within normal fuel consumption.

Blanked off versus faulty egr valve certainly improves economy, especially if you've got a hasty foot.
Working egr valve versus blanked off egr valve is to my personal experience neither better or worse.

As the engineers from BMW decided the vehicle needed an EGR, I decided to "not know better" and leave it at that.
 
Sorry to revive an old thread.

I am still looking into shutting the egr valve.
However, just exactly where is it on the 120?

I have a sneaky feeling it is actually on the turbo.
Take the front drivers wheel off, and then the engine splash guard, and then the turbo heat shield.
Then you can see the small cranked lever.
This is electrically operated, by a black solonoid valve.

I can see a small cranked lever which activates some thing in the exhaust side of the turbo.
If I drop off the little "C" clip on the bottom of the actuating lever, then I can manually move this little small cranked lever with a push and a poke.
When I put the small cranked lever in the most down position, the engine starts fine, but will not run above 1600 rpm.
When I put the small cranked lever to the most upward position, the engine is no problem, rev's freely to the red line.

I don't think the small cranked lever is a waste gate control, but I would like to know more about the egr.

G.
 
EGR Valve: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8077

As for the lever, I would guess it is the wastegate. If it won't run past 1600 it could be that the computer is limiting it due to lack of boost (you're holding the valve open)


it could also be the 1600RPM limiter control arm :mrgreen:
 
I did more reading,,,,
The lever controls the vane control inside the exhaust side
Depending on the engine load adn revs, determines how much exhaust gasses are produced.

When little gasses are produced, the angle of the exhaust gas is more severe to the impeller blades, keeping the turbo spinning fast.
When there is an abundance of exhaust gasses, the angle reduces, so the full exhaust gasses dont all hit the impellor.
Other wise will "over boost"
I dont see any waste gate.

G.
 
Graham said:
I did more reading,,,,
The lever controls the vane control inside the exhaust side
Depending on the engine load adn revs, determines how much exhaust gasses are produced.

When little gasses are produced, the angle of the exhaust gas is more severe to the impeller blades, keeping the turbo spinning fast.
When there is an abundance of exhaust gasses, the angle reduces, so the full exhaust gasses dont all hit the impellor.
Other wise will "over boost"
I dont see any waste gate.

G.
.
Well my brother did some more looking at the turbo problem, not reving past 1600.
The lever is adjustable, and it is the direction that the exhaust air hits the vanes.
What he did find was a small pipe off some where, under the big black cover that coveres the top of the engine.
Once he worked out where this pipe was supposed to go, his Land Cruiser was running great again.

Nothing to do at all with the egr.

Graham
 
Andrew Prince said:
Rob said:
Less oxygen means running you're running a rich fuel to air ratio which essentially means more unburnt carbon and more CO. Both of these are harmful to us (carbon particles cause respiratory problems and don't do asthmatics any favours and CO is poisonous).
Correct, Rob! :thumbup:

Hence, my comment here:
[quote="Andrew Prince":1kczblzz]Kind of a vicious circle though - you use EGR to reduce NOx but lower O2 feed into the engine means an increase of other pollutants, which means you have to recycle these in an attempt to fully burn these pollutants or Mr EU gets upset. But EGR only recycles part of the total exhaust volume, so you're pumping out partly burnt fuel (more so than a non-EGR engine!) but your NOx emissions are slightly reduced.
And my comments about EGR being a crude solution to one problem (NOx) that causes additional problems (CO and particulates).

To continue the tangent, I believe the Selective Catalytic Reduction (aka SCR) route using a urea solution (AdBlue) is superior as a technology. This technology treats the NOx in the exhaust gas and leaves the engine alone. This means that you can optimise engine performance without much concern for NOx formation, so aiming for as complete a burn as possible to reduce CO and particulate production, which typically means increased NOx production. The NOx then gets broken down in the exhaust into into N2 and water by reacting with ammonia produced from the decomposition of urea. N2 and H20 exist naturally in the atmosphere so effectively zero pollution from NOx, and CO and particulates are reduced substantially too. Yes, a small amount of additional CO2 is added via the urea but CO2 is the least bad pollutant in this system.

(SCR systems do require some additional hardware on the vehicle in terms of a catalytic converter and a urea-solution tank, and the tank has to be topped up with urea solution every so often. EGR is largely a fit and forget system requiring minimal maintenance by comparison)

:ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek:[/quote:1kczblzz]
.
Hi Andrew,

My brother is still very interested in blocking the egr on his 120 Land Cruiser.
He has asked me how to do it, but I couldn't advise him.
Can there just be a simple blanking plate made do you think?
I am sure Crispin has had all his egr valve to pieces to clean it, some time recently.
It must do some thing to improve power, and therfore economy.

G.
 
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