Noise after new clutch fit....

[frank rabbets]

Nice car the 2.5 Triumph Clive. My boss bought a new one in 1968 ish. He got banned for drink driving and I had to drive him from pub to pub as he was a licensed property valuer. He was mostly unconscious in the car so I really gave it some stick.

My brother has just restored the body shell for his and it's just been assembled and back on the road. Only a few cars left now.

 

[Towpack]

Took the LC over to a local transmission specialist this morning. To my surprise the noise was gone on startup but came back after a few miles. The guy at the shop said there is nothing wrong with the box, extolling the virtues of the box itself and how strong and well made they are etc. The rattling noise is down to the damper springs in the friction plate “chattering” the gears when idling in neutral and gets worse as the oil warms and thins. In fact he diagnosed the problem before he’d even heard it. Apparently he owned a VX 80 years ago and had the same problem when he fitted a non OEM Blueprint clutch. When asked what the fix would be and if he could do it he said fit an OEM clutch but, curiously, declined to to take it on.
So, what to do? I have a car that drives normally but rattles like a bag of spanner’s at idle.
Has anyone else fitted the Aisin Torquemaster clutch from RoughTrax and had the same problem?

 

[frank rabbets]

That's a mixed blessing TP but glad nothing was your fault. Their advert says "Increases horse power and torque capacity successfully". You want your money back as a minimum and I would have thought for them to pay your costs of getting a specialist to change the clutch. You'll have to pay for the OEM parts though. It's very time consuming if people don't cooperate but as I have time now I've done it several times. If the clutch is noisy it's faulty per se. Should be silent.

It can't increase horse power so that's an illegal statement straight off.

 

[MarkW]

I've been running a Roughtrax sourced Aisin clutch for 5 years, no problems, maybe you just got a bad one

 

[Towpack]

The situation seems to be that the noise is coming from the gearbox but it’s not a gearbox fault. So either the clutch is unsuitable (just cant see that) faulty from new or maybe the friction plate was damaged somehow during instal. Is it possible to warp the friction plate or maybe break/dislodge a damper spring? My next thought is bite the bullet, pay for an OEM clutch instal, perhaps even at a Toyota main dealer and, if the RoughTrax clutch comes out undamaged, take it up with RoughTrax.
I’m still wondering why the gearbox place wouldn’t take on the job if he was so sure what the fault is? He said it will make no difference to driving it and he’s right but there’s no way I can live with it like this.

 

[Iwan]

I fitted the same kit Towpack and it works correctly even though I had to make a new clutch slave pin as the original one was too short. When I was considering buying it I did some research and the outcome was that there are some 100 series components in the kit.. I think that it is the 100 series clutch plate that's in it and 24v 80 series for the rest.
When I received it I noticed that the clutch plate had plastic/nylon surrounds to the springs which reminded me of the difference between a 3.0 d4d and the 1kzt clutch plate difference. Which made me think this is an era thing!
Sorry for the ramblings earlier in the post man! But if a faulty clutch plate is supplied then the hassle and the expense to extract it and refit another must surely reside with the supplier. As you bought it and laid trust in the purchase choice.
Very odd that the guy today refused to take it on though!

All the very best with getting it in order!

 

[Gary820]

It's possible to damage a clutch during install yes, not necessarily easy to do but possible. Manufacturing issues too.
The box needs to come back out to have a look.

I've seen a lad get a friction plate back to front before and that made quite a noise, didn't drive though (he got that box back out pretty fast)


If you speak to Toyota ask them about a mla Loss avoidance case for a fitted clutch, tell them you've heard about them.

If they'll do it they basically submit to Toyota for discount, I've had an airbag control unit for a corolla done, the part was £320 and I had it supplied and fitted for £170! could get cvs pretty much half price plus other stuff. My mate is the manager which helps but it's a Toyota scheme not dealer specific.

It's worth a shot tbh. If not I can speak to my mate and see what he can do (in York and a good bunch of lads) they don't even need to see the car to request it

 

[chapel gate]

Ive got a brand new boxed oem clutch kit on the shelf if you need any pics for comparison.

 

[chapel gate]

W

It's possible to damage a clutch during install yes, not necessarily easy to do but possible. Manufacturing issues too.
The box needs to come back out to have a look.

I've seen a lad get a friction plate back to front before and that made quite a noise, didn't drive though (he got that box back out pretty fast)


If you speak to Toyota ask them about a mla Loss avoidance case for a fitted clutch, tell them you've heard about them.

If they'll do it they basically submit to Toyota for discount, I've had an airbag control unit for a corolla done, the part was £320 and I had it supplied and fitted for £170! could get cvs pretty much half price plus other stuff. My mate is the manager which helps but it's a Toyota scheme not dealer specific.

It's worth a shot tbh. If not I can speak to my mate and see what he can do (in York and a good bunch of lads) they don't even need to see the car to request it

What is this and how does it work gary?

 

[Towpack]

Ive got a brand new boxed oem clutch kit on the shelf if you need any pics for comparison.

Thanks CG. AFAIK the old one was OEM......



I'm also interested how this would work Gary. Are you saying that I could get the work done at a Toyota dealer and claim some sort of discount even if the replacement clutch wasn't supplied or fitted by them?

Ive been using the LC today and it seems if anything to be getting worse. I certainly give credit to the experience of the gearbox expert I saw this morning and i certainly am not one but it so sounds like something more serious than gear chatter caused by a faulty/damaged clutch. If the clutch is that bad how come it doesn't slip or judder etc? I want to take it to someone who can deal with either bad clutch or bad gearbox.

 

[bandsnbrakes]

Thanks CG. AFAIK the old one was OEM......

View attachment 143718 View attachment 143719 View attachment 143720

I'm also interested how this would work Gary. Are you saying that I could get the work done at a Toyota dealer and claim some sort of discount even if the replacement clutch wasn't supplied or fitted by them?

Ive been using the LC today and it seems if anything to be getting worse. I certainly give credit to the experience of the gearbox expert I saw this morning and i certainly am not one but it so sounds like something more serious than gear chatter caused by a faulty/damaged clutch. If the clutch is that bad how come it doesn't slip or judder etc? I want to take it to someone who can deal with either bad clutch or bad gearbox.

Just fitted one of these Roughtrax units (customer supplied) and they are ok, but don't overly impress me (had issues with release bearing during installation). I have to say OEM IS the only proper way to go for clutch feel and longevity end of (its just a bit more money that's all). Change the master cylinder and slave whilst your at it they will be getting tired too. Your noise will not be the gearbox it will be in the clutch/release bearing area. Last OEM Toyota clutch I fitted has now done 160,000 miles of HARD work (3.5 ton towing) enough said (trucks done 280,000 now and its getting ready for a change and box overhaul TBH).
Order clutch by chassis number as the 24 valve pressure plate is different to the 12 valve not only in diameter size but more importantly by finger design. Lastly you should not have to "pull" the box in (if you do theres something wrong). Clutch change on a ramp should take about 5-6 hours tops in and out kitted up. By the way have had nothing but headache with Valeo and LUK clutches in 4.2 Landcruiser applications. Fit the wrong clutch the synchros drag more too sometimes and it wears the box out prematurely. Just my experiences.

 

[Drewscruiser]

It really sounds like a loose pressure plate to me. Did you machine the flywheel when you replaced the clutch? The reason I ask is that I have seen flywheels that have been machined to the point that the pressure plate bolts will bottom out in the holes before they have fully tightened the pressure plate onto the flywheel. An incorrectly machined flywheel will also effect the bite point.
or if you didn't machine the flywheel is there something else that may have stopped the pressure plate from tightening correctly eg: different bolts, different washers, crud in the holes, different thickness of the new pressure plate steel compared to the old clutch etc etc.

 

[Gary820]

W

What is this and how does it work gary?

It's basically like a goodwill type of system, the dealer can submit a request to Toyota (loss avoidance) I think it's to do with keeping the older vehicle in the dealer network. I found out about it when i had a corolla in with my mate for an airbag control unit.

@Towpack The part would have to be supplied and fitted by the dealer but the request is made before the repair gets done.

My mate could put a request in I'm quite sure before even having the vehicle on site, they price the parts and labour, submit to Toyota and request the loss avoidance thing. A day or so later they get either a yes with a discounted price or a no.

I can pop next door on Monday and ask him if you want?

Not sure if it's on every part but worth a look into.

 

[frank rabbets]

After the car has reached its noisy operating temperature it would be interesting to rev it up in neutral with foot off clutch. That way the noise should disappear if MT are correct then return when revs are dropped to idle again. More revs means more torque in the oil which may settle the spring resonance at the higher revs. The springs are a shock absorber and they allow the outer part of the friction plate to delay in rotation c/w with the splined part. If they are too soft I can see why they would resonate with the gearbox play but I've never seen nor heard of it before.

 

[frank rabbets]

P.S. The purpose of the springs is to reduce the shearing/torque forces experienced by the friction plate when the clutch is engaged. It's possible to turn the splined part round before the friction part moves if you hold it in a vice. It stops turning when the springs are coil bound. I've seen friction plates torn in two and allowing the splined part to spin round inside the outer friction part. You could see a circumferential crack that had been developing over time witnessed by parts of the crack which were polished meaning those parts of the crack had been there a long time.

 

[chapel gate]

TP. Your gonna have to just drop the box. Everything is just speculation until you have a look. The problem might show its self straight away.
I understand the pain of having a struggle then the job not being right believe me. At the moment you just feeling like washing your hands of the thing and letting someone else sort it.
either way, the box needs removing, you could be doing more damage. On the plus side it isnt your DD. Ive spent many a late sunday in the cold and dark putting the 80 back together, and every other motor ive had, to be at work monday morning..

 

[Towpack]

Had a look at the slave cylinder/clutch arm this morning. The free play in the arm with the slave off is 30mm front to back. As far as I can see using, a torch and mirrors, the release bearing is still attached to the arm, I can even see the clip. When underneath with the engine running the noise certainly seems to be coming from the front of the box/bell housing area. Listening with the mechanics stethoscope sounds the same.

Frank, the noise does disappear when the engine is revved in neutral. By 11-1200 rpm it’s gone.

CG, you’re absolutely right, the box will have to come out again but I’ll not be doing it. For one thing I’ll not have use of the ramp again for a while, plus, if I did remove it and it is a box fault I’m no better off. I’m going to get a second opinion from another gearbox specialist/reconditioners, and also price up the fitting of an OEM clutch by a local Toyota dealer.

It’s also booked in for MOT tomorrow so I hoping it gets through without issue.

 

[frank rabbets]

I will be publicly gobsmacked if the box is at fault. I think MT have it bang on. The springs can't resonate when at high neutral revs or when there is drive. There's nothing in the box to make that noise if it's a breakage. CG is right however there is a dose of speculation.

Was the pressure plate doweled to the flywheel in the usual design?

 

[madmanmart]

Very unlucky, but I can’t believe you’re still driving it!

I wouldn’t consider a Toyota main dealer, it’s abit above checking the batteries on a Prius lol.
Specialist is a better option.

I’d be doing it myself on my back. That’s what I did last time.

 

[Dave2000]

I have the Aisin clutch, side by side I could see no difference with the OE part I took out however, the supplier pointed out that they take a cut in their profit margin if they do not have a pattern in stock, and often supply an OE unit preferring customer satisfaction. Sounds good, but the proof is in the pudding, I have used the company many times.

Having said that, I do not think for one minute I have an OE unit but, would guess it was made by the same manufacturer such were the similarities.

Regards

Dave