'Pigtail' recovery loops

Dave Burgess

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2010
247
1
36
Didcot, Oxon
Hello chaps,

Are the 'pigtail' recovery loops/towing eyes suitably rated for winch use?

As I'm in the area on the chassis, I will be getting some new bolts (8.8 grade min) but a bit longer to hold on some eyes as well as bumper mounts and the tow bar on the back. They'll also be long enough to fit graded nuts on top of the chassis captives (of unknown grade and 16 years age) though doing them up will be a challenge :lol: .

So to use the pigtails or some other item (e.g. Warn hooks - but I don't like those) or drill for JATE ring type attachments?

Cheers,

Dave.
 

tomrichardson

Active Member
i think they would be ok. when i removed the bolt on pigtails to fit an oem winch, i noticed the winch plate has a pair the same, welded to the bottom in the same position. i was going to fit my spare pair on the back chassis rails when i get time.
much better than those silly hooks that let a slack rope slip off.
 

Richard Jackaman

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2010
246
2
38
Scottish Borders
I've used the pigtails when winching on my 70 series and never had an issue.

I've swapped the captive nuts as they tend to rust and, as they're only fine thread, can pull out if abused.

Cheers
 

BobMurphy

Well-Known Member
I am in scotland
Mar 1, 2010
1,602
595
113
Kirkliston, Scotland
Some years ago (when I subscribed to 'Land Rover Owner International' mag) I read of an accident in which a passenger died.

The 4x4 she was in (Land Rover, I think) was attempting to recover a stuck vehicle using a kinetic recovery rope. They had it attached to the standatd 'tie down' fitting.

The fitting gave way under the strain, went through the rear window of the recovery vehicle like a bullet and killed her.

Just be careful what you subject these things to - probably OK with a winch, particularly with the non-springing hawser.

Bob.
 
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Andrew Prince

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2010
2,232
13
38
Joburg, sunny South Africa
The standard "pig tail" tie down loop on an 80 is very big & strong. I agree that any old standard tie-down on most cars is not suitable but I think the 80 one is tough enough. There are plenty of people on here that have used them in fairly extreme circumstances without any issues.

LR tie-downs breaking... :roll: well, it's in keeping with the rest of the package, no :?:
 

Dave Burgess

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2010
247
1
36
Didcot, Oxon
I remember the article in LRO and all the other magazines at the time... There was a little more to it than just a tie down loop but KERRs are the scourge of any vehicle other than something armoured. Long ago in Off Road and 4 Wheel Drive mag (in black and white no less) there was a pic of an old Range Rover that had come (un)stuck and been recovered with a KERR by an Austin Champ. The complete NATO hitch and a section of the cross-member flew through the passenger compartment (and passenger headrest)

As I hoped, there is opinion on here that the pig tails are up to non-KERR use. Thanks...
 

Julian Voelcker

Well-Known Member
Mar 5, 2010
313
4
38
Herefordshire, UK
Dave Burgess said:
I remember the article in LRO and all the other magazines at the time... There was a little more to it than just a tie down loop but KERRs are the scourge of any vehicle other than something armoured. Long ago in Off Road and 4 Wheel Drive mag (in black and white no less) there was a pic of an old Range Rover that had come (un)stuck and been recovered with a KERR by an Austin Champ. The complete NATO hitch and a section of the cross-member flew through the passenger compartment (and passenger headrest)
The trick with KERRs is to use them with bridles at either end so you are using two mounting points on each vehicle. Then if one of the mounting points fails then the broken bits only fly as far as the end of the bridle.
 

ByronJ

Well-Known Member
I am in wales
Jul 7, 2012
349
222
43
Burry Port
Hello chaps,

Are the 'pigtail' recovery loops/towing eyes suitably rated for winch use?

As I'm in the area on the chassis, I will be getting some new bolts (8.8 grade min) but a bit longer to hold on some eyes as well as bumper mounts and the tow bar on the back. They'll also be long enough to fit graded nuts on top of the chassis captives (of unknown grade and 16 years age) though doing them up will be a challenge :lol: .

So to use the pigtails or some other item (e.g. Warn hooks - but I don't like those) or drill for JATE ring type attachments?

Cheers,

Dave.
Reviving an old post but useful info I think.

It appears the front tie down / recovery points on JDM 80's are more substantial than UK versions. While attempting to fit an Ironman winch bumper to my 80 today I discovered it was impossible to use my existing recovery / tie down points as they look like this:
Recovery eye IMG_3184.jpg

Clearly a solid wrap around attachment to the chassis but as the Ironman winch mounting plate slides over the end of the chassis I cannot refit them. Guess I will have to have something made :anguished:. Bit of a challenge as I am very short of time. May have to forgo this bumper and winch for my trip to Western Sahara :unamused:.
 

cmcmill01

Well-Known Member
Supporter
I am in uk
Sep 11, 2013
453
134
63
Bromley
I got a set of these recently, they where up on FaceBook, but cant find them at the moment
I have a few set's of these for sale £50 including P&P

They are made from 12mm laser cut plate. They have 15mm holes in so they will suit both 80 and 100 series. I will supply 10.9 grade flange bolts and 5mm thick washers if they are for the 80 series but the 100 can just use the standard bolts.


View attachment 90760


View attachment 90761


View attachment 90762
 

stumog

Well-Known Member
I am in england
Oct 3, 2012
3,508
641
113
Hi byron

I have some normal ones if you are desperate you can borrow or buy up to you.

I am in Bristol if you need to collect as.I can't get to the post office
 

Justin_Elliott

Well-Known Member
Supporter
I am in great_britain
Apr 3, 2010
464
4
38
Isle of Wight
Garage
Byron,

Does this mean your current recovery loops are available?

I have the same type on mine - with a factory PTO but my LHS one fractured (so cut the rest off for safety!)...

Thanks,

Justin
 

Scott

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2010
1,033
113
63
Essex
The trick with KERRs is to use them with bridles at either end so you are using two mounting points on each vehicle. Then if one of the mounting points fails then the broken bits only fly as far as the end of the bridle.
Good advice Julian.

Also, often when doing a KERRs recovery people do a Grand Prix start to extract the stuck vehicle, this puts immense strain on the recovery points, not to mention through the recovering vehicles drive train. The trick with KERRs recovery is to be gentle with the first pull to gauge the stuck vehicles reaction, and then gradually build up the force exerted on the rope by using a bit more power on subsequent pulls, but always keeping the forces below what you expect the weakest link in the recovery connections can handle.

Take your time when recovering vehicles, assess the conditions and forces in play before getting started. Otherwise you could have a lot of time to reassess whilst repairing the vehicle, or worse - sitting in hospital.
 

stumog

Well-Known Member
I am in england
Oct 3, 2012
3,508
641
113
On our offroad site I used to work on we had a kerr go straight throw a defender.

The rear window smashed and sent glass into the drivers face. I was one of the worse things I had seen upto that point.

The chap was deaf aswell and nobody there knew how to sign so couldn't communicate either.

So please all becarefull and think before you floor it.

I really should sort out a beginners instruction day for people.
 

ByronJ

Well-Known Member
I am in wales
Jul 7, 2012
349
222
43
Burry Port
Byron,

Does this mean your current recovery loops are available?

I have the same type on mine - with a factory PTO but my LHS one fractured (so cut the rest off for safety!)...

Thanks,

Justin
Hi Justin

They might be. I am thinking about altering the existing recovery loops so I can refit them. If that does not work out I will give you a shout.

Byron
 

ByronJ

Well-Known Member
I am in wales
Jul 7, 2012
349
222
43
Burry Port
Hi byron

I have some normal ones if you are desperate you can borrow or buy up to you.

I am in Bristol if you need to collect as.I can't get to the post office
Thank you :thumbup:. I am thinking of fabricating something. If that does not work out I will be in touch.

Byron
 

frank rabbets

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2010
4,964
1,228
113
Stourbridge
At the age of 18 I was a farm labourer. We had a "KERR" system of work. We had been ordered to clear a dutch barn out and in there was an old 'combine stuck about 2 ft in the mud. We found a 16ft long heavy duty chain and tied it round the 'combine's chassis. Then we connected to a Fordson Major's tow eye. We reversed the tractor right up to the combine then charged off. When the chain became taught my friend was thrown over the steering wheel of the tractor. I remember kneeling on the floor with tears streaming down my face after his repeated attempts to master this operation. In the end a pin sheared on the tractor and my friend continued at full speed with the chain and toeing eye lying on the ground. No danger in the chain at all but all the kinetic energy was stored in the tractor which with brakes at that time was quite dangerous. The pin was 3/4 inch thick and sheared in 4 places. A single shear on a 1/4 inch steel bolt is 1 ton so the pin would have taken 40 tons force assuming it was not cracked. good old days.
 
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clivehorridge

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Guru
I am in romania
May 23, 2012
14,861
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Comarnic, Romania
Garage
Nice story Frank and it helps put these forces into perspective.

On many occasions, I've used my winch to pull the truck up inclines when the wheels have been heavily bogged in mud, and the force has brought the winch very close to a stall many times. OK, it's only a 9,000lb rated winch, and it probably doesn't deliver 9,00olb anymore, but there's still a hefty force stored up in the winch line and the bits and bobs that hold it all together. This force can also be compounded with the use of snatch-blocks and the like, or kinetic rope, so it really is a potentially dangerous pastime, whichever way you look at it.

I like any thread that brings attention to this, nobody cares too much about damage or a broken window, or whatever, but when it comes to injuries to the driver or an innocent passenger, kids, what have you, it becomes a serious matter.

We have a lot of responsibility to keep pending misadventures to a minimum.
 

frank rabbets

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2010
4,964
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Stourbridge
It's surprising that there was almost no KE in that chain when it broke Clive. It just fell on the ground in a dead straight line. I assume it's impossible to measure how much KE you are putting in to a stretchy rope and therefore impossible to gauge when it will break. I assume that's how they work I've never heard of them before.
 
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