Subscriptions - forum update. Please read.

[Chris]

Hi Paul, I haven't and will not put try to put a value on CPs's time. I said out of pocket - cash. The web hosting stuff. I can't say that we all do stuff for free, but I certainly do. All the time and I am glad to. Whether it's P&P marshalling, giving advice to members via PMs which I do a lot, helping out local groups in relation to safety etc etc. I don't cost that out, it's free. I don't cost out the wear and tear on my truck pulling out other less fortunate drivers all weekend long, or people stuck in the snow. But someone wants a favour that is going to cost me money, then I may well ask for that back. My effort is for free.

Ok this isn't a pissing competetion, but you aksed a fair question and I'm replying. It's not up to me to suggest what I pay Crispin, it's for him to tell me what he wants. And he just has. That's nice and clear. He's not said anything about the hours he puts in and how he misses his family. It's about costs.

All I want to do is look at the angles. We know each other and if we need to dig down and sort something that's fine I guess. But when people come along who we don't know and they cough up, what can they expect? What WILL they expect? I asked a question and I haven't had a reply, what am I getting for my money? Banned I shouldn't wonder ha ha. Again, I haven't said no, we shouldn't. I am saying let's discuss it and get the right outcome.

 

[Bat21]

.... I feel it will discourage potential new members from joining.....

.... But imagining yourself as a 'newbie' to Landcruisers and looking for advice and information no way would you subscribe to an unknown site !!!

Read the original post folks.... Cris is not planning on making the whole site subscriber only.

 

[Leopard]

As someone that works in IT and considering the volunteer stuff I do (hosting, technical support and administration) for others I can understand the cost and time requirements a site like this would have. Lots of traffic and storage can get pricey. I have no problem contributing to the running costs. I have don't so on other forums in the past.

It's the age old trade off between advertising versus subscriptions. Any sponsors would need a return, be it exposure, they want something tangible out of it. They won't contribute because its a good community that support their brand well.

I've been involved in setting up an online TV show (not 4x4 related) in Australia in a volunteer capacity. The bigger it gets, the more money it costs to run, the more expensive TV recording equipment is required and the more time it consumes. We've also found it very tricky to get sponsors, regardless of the size of the audience because the corporates are thrown advertising/sponsorship opportunities left, right and centre.

Dropped you a PM, Crispin, to see what sort of traffic and infrastructure the site requires.

 

[Chris Green90]

With time, non-subscribers and new users will be limited in what they can see and do compared to subscribers. The good sections, those that make the forum as helpful as it is, will stay for all to see.
Some of those limits will be trip reports, the selling sections, the club discounts, avatars etc. I’ll find a happy medium…{edit: Bat21 pointed out I need maths lessons}

Not sure I see the point in subscribing really. If this is the model for what can only be accessed by subscribers it seems to be the community stuff and not the technical side That I spend most of my time in and I think thats what t'other Chris was saying aswell. I have no problem in supporting the club but am just trying to see things from all sides

 

[Chris Green90]

I must also admit that I was quite surprised when you did the update Crispin that you added image hosting, Surely that must hike up the cost with bandwith and storage space??? But that may be total nonesense as Iam not up to speed with such things

 

[Trevor]

My views are that wherever Crispin is hosting the site and the various upgrades that have been done over the years have given us a very stable and consistent resource that we enjoy and rely on, to that end don't fix what aint broke and move to another host, which is a pita to do and would add yet more time that Crispin would need to find.

Like others, I personally would gladly contribute on a yearly basis but a fair point is made about attracting new members, as it stands I think this is probably THE go to site for LC related stuff in Europe and maybe beyond.

Given that this is a ready made potential customer hotspot, then maybe the likes of Milners, Toyota, Roughtrax, Opie, ARB etc etc may be happy to make a yearly contribution. I'm sure this would be a tiny drop in their yearly marketing budget and be a no brainer to reach out to ready made consumer base.

I hate ads and banners splurged all over a site, but perhaps a Sponsor section can be added where those ads are put, the sponsor could perhaps have the facility to use that section to post offers and the like which won't clutter the rest of the site. I see that at least one of these names advertise on the other site so maybe this could work. I guess it's all in the spin and maybe someone far better versed in these things could try writing something appropriate to these vendors, including relevant site traffic info, new accounts per month/year, new post numbers, page hits etc to show the intrinsic value of the site compared to others which may be targeting the same people. Maybe give them a full access login for 30 days so they can see the site for what it is.

Could be worth a try as Plan A and see how that pans out and move to a Plan B only if needed.

I posted some time ago why I use this site more than others, because of the "feel" of the place and I think that some of the things that make up that "feel" is the fact it's well moderated, free, the input from all walks of life whether amateur, experienced or expert and it's a very inclusive atmosphere. To try and limit this experience and ultimately the "feel" based on any criteria I think would be detrimental to what we have, do we want to lose good contributors, or potential contributors (those that currently lurk but would post something very useful when the time is right in their LC ownership journey)?

Some people contribute often, some not. Of those that do, some content is very useful and some just banter so I think it's impossible to determine who should have a restricted view. The free bit is what helps to make this really work well and that part of the community doesn't earn anything from the using the site. Suppliers of LC related "stuff" contribute in part sometimes with discounted pricing which is always welcome but as they do profit from others recommendations of products or services then I think it would be fair and equitable that a contribution towards "free" recommendations and cheap advertising is the way to go.

I'm hoping there is a solution that will solve the running costs need without alienating any user demographic needlessly.

 

[Chris Green90]

My views are that wherever Crispin is hosting the site and the various upgrades that have been done over the years have given us a very stable and consistent resource that we enjoy and rely on, to that end don't fix what aint broke and move to another host, which is a pita to do and would add yet more time that Crispin would need to find.

Like others, I personally would gladly contribute on a yearly basis but a fair point is made about attracting new members, as it stands I think this is probably THE go to site for LC related stuff in Europe and maybe beyond.

Given that this is a ready made potential customer hotspot, then maybe the likes of Milners, Toyota, Roughtrax, Opie, ARB etc etc may be happy to make a yearly contribution. I'm sure this would be a tiny drop in their yearly marketing budget and be a no brainer to reach out to ready made consumer base.

I hate ads and banners splurged all over a site, but perhaps a Sponsor section can be added where those ads are put, the sponsor could perhaps have the facility to use that section to post offers and the like which won't clutter the rest of the site. I see that at least one of these names advertise on the other site so maybe this could work. I guess it's all in the spin and maybe someone far better versed in these things could try writing something appropriate to these vendors.

Could be worth a try as Plan A and see how that pans out and move to a Plan B only if needed.

Pedders??? They seem to be on here quite a bit as do a couple of insurance companies.

 

[IRLGW]

couldn't milners do it cheaper!

I'm happy to pay- probably saved me 1000 times that in time wasted to date...

 

[Trevor]

Just another thought, if you were selling something through the old method of a card in the newsagents window which you would have paid for. How about charging a quid to post in the For Sale section?.......I'll run for cover now.

 

[Paddler Ed]

My tuppence...

-I've used a kayaking and canoeing site where the whole site is free, and has about 6-8 sponsors who contribute to the costs of the server/hosting/software, as well as to the content on the forum, and do a run of t-shirts every so often
-I also use a canoeing forum where there is a 2-tier membership, with payment needed to advertise in the for sale section
-I use another car forum where it is supported by the Owners Club and the manufacturer via the OC
-I use an American based car forum where they have a fund raising mission every year
-I advertised our BMW on one of the BMW forums where you paid to advertise.

Out of all of those models I like the first and the last 2 the most for the following reasons (and I'll outline why for each one)

-Advertisement/Sponsor model: Minimal impact (2 banner ads at the top), maximum benefit. Plus the company's have owners/employees who contribute to the content on the forum when appropriate. T-shirts also get the name out there as people will wear them when out and about (in that particular example they'll end up as what you wear on and off the river when you go paddling.
-The fund raising model has those who have contributed as having the following additional access/functions: Blue user name, larger PM box, ability to send PM's to more than one person at a time, direct uploading to the forum of pictures as opposed to linking via photoasa etc
-The last model was good for a fly-by advert; I didn't need to spend any time on there as I was selling the car, so £5 to advertise it for a month was fair. If I'd been a contributing member then it would have cost £20 for the year or something like that, and I wouldn't have needed to pay to advertise it.

What would I do? I'd let people pay what they were willing/able to pay, and then go from there; hopefully at least some of the costs would be covered, and as it increases then potentially the number contributing does as well.

The challenge is is making it so it has some benefit that people are willing to pay for; in the case of this forum I would set it so that the following areas/functions are limited to those who have made a contribution:
-Larger PM box
-Ability to directly load photos onto the forum
-Post an advert in for-sale
-Access to member's offers (with potentially a small charge for the advertiser if they are commercial to advertise in there)

On the £12 fee; that's just under 2 hrs work at NMW in the UK; for those in Australia that would be equivalent to about $35 in terms of hours worked at minimum wage, but as a direct currency exchange it's around $18... just something to think about when setting contributions/fees for an international website...

 

[Olazz]

The issue of not being able to attract new members due to a subscription, is not a very strong argument IMO. There are many forums out there that are successful and continue to grow, and to attract new members with a subscription. It is free choice, and no one has to pay if they feel it their breaches "their principles".

It can't be a cost argument either, as most of us spend considerably more than £12 on fettling, repairing, enhancing these vehicles.

I wasn't party to the original setup of the site, so have no idea if any terms of reference were ever discussed or agreed upon, but if this site is to continue to develop and improve, and the costs continue to rise, then it needs to evolve....and be paid for.

Or is the real issue and objection that CP may make some money out of this whole venture if everyone subscribes?

CP what about flooding the site with irksome banner adverts, (see IHMUD) and people who chose to subscribe can have the advertising turned off?

Doing everything for free is a very noble sentiment, but not very practical in the 21st century.

 

[Andrew Brierley]

I would rather one of the offers of free hosting was taken up than charge a subscription, I'm not suggesting Crispin should continue to pay if he doesn't want to.

Problem with free hosting is that you typically get what you pay for. I'm happy to repeat my offer of last year to provide free hosting in our data centre. I'm afraid that the server admin will still be up to CP, but (for those in the know) we provide: carrier independent; route diverse, 500MB bearers and generator backup with 7 days on-board fuel. It may be that we still need to generate funds for general running costs, but let's not spend it unnecessarily. Just sayin'......

 

[froggy Steve]

I would gladly cough up 12 squids for the site, its great - Contributions from suppliers is also a great idea - I think they used to do that with the MX-5 owners club, so c'mon suppliers, hows about it?

Steve

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

CP is the only person doing serious server admin because having more than one person tinkering at that level causes problems. If he has reached a point he'd like to step back then he can do and let someone else take up the slack. If it is about money then there are at least 2 offers of hosting and at least one offer of Sponsorship have been turned down so I don't understand that. It doesn't have to be CP that moves the site if a move is needed, but CP registered and owns the domain and calls the shots so is in control here.

 

[Olazz]

CP is the only person doing serious server admin because having more than one person tinkering at that level causes problems. CP registered and owns the domain and calls the shots so is in control here.

Isn't that the whole point Jon?

If you registered a site and domain and helped build and maintain a forum, would you expect members who joined to dictate the T&C's??
Now I'm not in IT, and therefore not cognizant of what's involved in maintaining a forum, but I don't see how individual members who join, should be "calling the shots".

I don't understand the objection to pay £12. The "principle" of not doing so, is just lost on me.

Is there some other earlier agenda that I'm missing?

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

If you registered a site and domain and helped build and maintain a forum, would you expect members who joined to dictate the T&C's??
Now I'm not in IT, and therefore not cognizant of what's involved in maintaining a forum, but I don't see how individual members who join, should be "calling the shots".

The latter is what I signed up for and was quite clear about that I feel and there have been threads to that effect i.e. users decide stuff. Crispin has worked hard at putting the building blocks in place but it is the users who have built a community and made this forum what it is. If those users vote for a subscription, that's fine, I will adapt accordingly, I am just voicing my opinion of that as a user myself. If you're saying this is Crispin's club and not the users then imo that would be a game changer and then this really is not the type of 'club' I thought it was.

 

[grantw]

I'm a relative new comer .. but here are my thoughts anyway. I think all options to keep it free should be exhausted first, it seems there are quite a few offers there all ready. If that fails then I'd rather a hat passed round again and failing all that then a subscription. I would rather pay a subscription than lose the site as it is. Having said that if the subscription were to push members such as Jon and Chris away then it would leave a massive gaping hole which would diminish the appeal ...

 

[yogi]

The Toyota Hilux (HPOC) forum has quite a good system, on the first page (forgive me, I'm not up on the 'IT' terms for these things) where it shows you the different 'sections' of the forum i.e. technical etc, there is also a section dedicated to 'sponsors' where Roughtrax, Milners etc have their own index page.

This allows them to advertise in a manner less 'in your face' than on the American sits such as IH8MUD etc with the endless bannered ads.

Personally I don't like subscribing to things if the corporate world can be made to pay for it, I think its little to ask in return for the way they bleed both consumers (with their extortionate 'middle man' fees) and producers (with their 'cost cutting' exercises) dry.

 

[Chris]

Thanks for that Grant, it's certainly not going to push me away that's for sure. I spent too many hours (for free) on here and I am not going to walk away. Certainly not for £12.00. Hell I pay Planet Rock £4.99 a month just to have the adverts turned off. I am just not so quick to jump into the 'let's all pay up' camp. This is not about being stingey, nor the fear that Crispin will make his fortune from it. I have never met a more helpful nor generous South African and he's certainly never seemingly driven by money. Case in point here - he's been subbing the forum! Sorry CP it's like talking as though you aren't here mate.

I just want a reasoned debate that's all. We need to pay for the site, we can't have CP's Kids going without shoes. But that is the key matter here - paying for hosting. It's not about people's time and energy and value etc etc. We have to keep a focus. Do we want to keep the forum, yes it seems we do. OK than how will we raise the money to do that OR what alternatives are there that mean we can do it free.

Nutshell for me.

So before we all dive for the wallet, are there alternatives. if you think that this is too much work and chucking a few quid in makes it all so much easier then I can understand that, I can barely log on never mind run a site nor move one. But we have to think about any resultant implications of that. It's simply thinking it through. Couple of implications - we may generate more cash than we need, so what do we do then? Book a band for Lincomb? And we may push some people, such as Jon, out of the very section of the forum that we'd like them to participate in. Neither of these are deal breakers. We could say 'Hey if you don't want to pay, that's fine, no man is an island, we'll just do without you'. Yes, we could, but it's not the principles on which we built this community.

If we HAVE to pay, trust me, I'll pay. But I'd rather it was all free because it didn't cost anyone anything.

See?

 

[adrianr]

Nicely summed up Chris. And with you as well Jon. Let explore the alternatives first and keep this the way it was mooted at the start.