End of diesel overland travelling in Europe.

moggy1968

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Comparing cars to cookers.

2 rings on the cooker is 1300 μg/m3. What is the car doing to be limited to 40 μg/m3? Emissions are measured in output/km so someone is normalising values, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do but they need to describe that process for it to have any meaning.

Im sat drinking my coffee (not too hot, don't want throat cancer!) in a shop next to a road right now. There are cars driving past constantly. More that one a second when I consider both sides. There were probably more earlier. So having normalised the emissions figures I need to include frequency in my calculations. The cars, in this location are high in frequency I suspect most of the day. So what % of people use gas cookers compared to the % using diesel cars, and how does the duration of cooking and driving compare?

Then I suspect, but I'm no chemist, that the NO2 problem is with concentration and so targeting cars makes sense in cities where the NO2 is being produced close to your face daily. Fossil fuel fired power stations are probably pretty bad news too but we don't build so many schools, and coffee shops next to them, and they have stuff like big chimneys to push as much of the emissions up high to get them to dissipate.

Unfortunately I suspect it's a little more complicated than comparing normalised figures in isolation. And isolated observations; my grandmother is 95, has smoked 20 a day since she was 14 and looks pretty good for it. I hope I've inherited her genes. The problem, as always, is simple comparisons are easy to understand so gain a lot of traction. That's not to say the more complex calculations shouldn't be questioned.
Unfortunately the flaw in that is that you are looking at simple emissions, the figures I looked at were estimates of what we actually breathe in, and most of us spend more time in our homes than our cars and modern homes lack adequate ventilation so that’s why the exposure in the home is so high.

It’s like saying that sitting in your car in the garage with the garage door shut and the engine running you’re no more likely to die than driving down the road because the emissions are the same, clearly not because the concentration of gas is so much higher it will do you more harm. An extreme example I know but it illustrates the point.

The genetics thing is a valid point. It is now thought that cancer is due to a defective anti cancer gene. Some people have a genetic predisposition, some don’t. What your doing though is playing the percentages game. Let’s take as example 1000 smokers, all smoke 20 a day. All other lifestyle factors are normalised. 10% die in accidents. 20% of them die before 50 due to smoking related diseases, another 30% before 70, another 30% before 80, bit 10% grow old and die of something unrelated to smoking. They all took the same risks but because of their genetic predisposition the effect of their lifestyle choices has a different effect. Sure, you can go through life smoking 20 a day and live until you’re 98, bit you’re loading the probability dice against yourself. If your overweight, have a bad diet, work shifts, have a stressful job and drink too much then you load the dice up more.
Interestingly research done on Egyptian mummies showed no evidence of cancerous changes even on old age, ancwr appears to be a fairly modern phenomenon.
Disclaimer - before anyone asks me to evidence those figures I made them up to illustrate the point!
 
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leeloo

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In Brussels they had some air quality monitors, some placed on main arteries, near tunnels, etc.. almost all day, specially in the winter, on red .
The problem was solved by removing them, now they have them somewhere in parcs, on the outskirts.. so, since then, the air quality improved a lot and Brussels is no longer fined for the poor air quality it has .. :)
That being said, , after promoting diesel a lot in Belgium, for may many years, now in 2021 I will have to sell my Land cruiser because I won't be able to enter the city at all. The other option will be to move ut of the city and comute for like 2 h each way every day wich is also a bit unacceptable for me.
I am not talking about a small area like the London congestion tax, witch only covers the Center, and I would agree to that, here it is the whole city, what ever is inside the ring, and this is exaggerated.
I drive a hybrid to work, and the Land cruiser on week-end and holidays, but that does not matter to them.

This is why I am also very limited with the modifications I would like to make. I don't know why toyota is not selling the 2.7 L petrol in Europe at all, I would buy it just for piece of mind.
The only option I will have 2021 will be a Hilux, since it is a pick -up it is also taxed differently.
 
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Higgy

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What are the laws regarding Diesels in London these days... Iv kinda lost touch /Interest. some one wants me to fetch a boat from Putney with the Trailer... I did mention the LEZ to the customer but im not sure about the 120 Its a LC5 04 reg..It use to be exempt but im not so sure now. Did they change it?
 

Chas

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What are the laws regarding Diesels in London these days... Iv kinda lost touch /Interest. some one wants me to fetch a boat from Putney with the Trailer... I did mention the LEZ to the customer but im not sure about the 120 Its a LC5 04 reg..It use to be exempt but im not so sure now. Did they change it?
If it's of any help, this is the last pic I have of the current ULEZ map. Putney is inside the zone.

ULEZ map.jpg
 
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moggy1968

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What are the laws regarding Diesels in London these days... Iv kinda lost touch /Interest. some one wants me to fetch a boat from Putney with the Trailer... I did mention the LEZ to the customer but im not sure about the 120 Its a LC5 04 reg..It use to be exempt but im not so sure now. Did they change it?
You can go online, enter your vehicle details and they will tell you if it’s allowed in or not.
As far as I am aware the LEZ applies to commercials and campervans (why???) only, not private cars but don’t quote me on that.
 

Higgy

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You can go online, enter your vehicle details and they will tell you if it’s allowed in or not.
As far as I am aware the LEZ applies to commercials and campervans (why???) only, not private cars but don’t quote me on that.
The last time i went to that same marina in Putney I was in my old 3.1 Trooper SWB commercial... They Hammered me for that one...
 
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Higgy

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Just done the check and it came back with...'Your Vehicle is Subject to ULEZ...Then it goes on to say As of April 1st 2019.. Bla Bla Bla! Your vehicle will be subject to ULEZ....:?..I put my REG in for the LEZ and it came back with.. Your Vehicle is Subject to the £200 a day LEZ charge..I guess he can sail his boat back.. Id have to charge Him over £400 just to make a tiny Profit.... Not worth the Agro
 
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StarCruiser

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Just done the check and it came back with...'Your Vehicle is Subject to ULEZ...Then it goes on to say As of April 1st 2019.. Bla Bla Bla! Your vehicle will be subject to ULEZ....:?..I put my REG in for the LEZ and it came back with.. Your Vehicle is Subject to the £200 a day Daily LEZ charge..I guess he can sail his boat back.. Id have to charge Him over £400 just to make a tiny Profit.... Not worth the Agro
I’ve just entered my Reg on the 80 here https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/check-if-your-vehicle-is-affected?intcmp=2266
and it returned that it was exempt. However I also went through the wizard and it told me I drove a van that was chargeable. I’m going by the Reg.
 

Higgy

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I’ve just entered my Reg on the 80 here https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/check-if-your-vehicle-is-affected?intcmp=2266
and it returned that it was exempt. However I also went through the wizard and it told me I drove a van that was chargeable. I’m going by the Reg.
Yeh i put the 80 reg in as well and it all came back the same as the 120.... Put the missus 61 plate skoda fabia in That was LEZ exempt ..... But subject to ULEZ charges come April 8 2019... This is a car that the emissions were so low, that its only £20 a year to tax... WTF...
 

StarCruiser

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Yeh i put the 80 reg in as well and it all came back the same as the 120.... Put the missus 61 plate skoda fabia in That was LEZ exempt ..... But subject to ULEZ charges come April 8 2019... This is a car that the emissions were so low, that its only £20 a year to tax... WTF...
Mine would be ULEZ non compliant. But I’m not going there. I can’t see why one cruiser should be subject to it and another not.

Just don’t you go thinking it’s a money making scheme now will you! It’s to save people’s lives you know!!
 

StarCruiser

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The other interesting thing is that it doesn’t seem to matter if you run on bio or derv.

It says to register your vehicle if you believe it has been wrongly classified.
 

Higgy

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I was just reading through more Blurb.. And basically given time if its not Electric... Your Gonna get charged Eventually....
 

Jacob100

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An urban planner on the radio earlier made the point that you’d be naive to think that a ban on private motoring in cities is a wishy-washy European concept. Again China is leading the way.
 

moggy1968

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Yeh i put the 80 reg in as well and it all came back the same as the 120.... Put the missus 61 plate skoda fabia in That was LEZ exempt ..... But subject to ULEZ charges come April 8 2019... This is a car that the emissions were so low, that its only £20 a year to tax... WTF...
As per the conversation I had with my taxi driver that I wrote about earlier.
As I understand it basically all diesels will be barred from the ULEZ, regardless of their actual emissions, but his old Bentley that does 9mpg will be fine. Go figure!!
 
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