New 80 series front springs fitted to Fierys rear end

[Chris]

Shayne, I'm guessing. Now only guessing mind you, that you have neither a miller nor a lathe, nor necessarily experience of either?

Wild shot in the dark, you know.

Round things go in lathes. That way it's easy.

Clamping that in a miller would take longer than milling it. Given the depth of cut that you could do, you'd be at it for some time too. You would also have to ensure it was flat so that you ended up with a squared up spacer. Whacked in the lathe you could face it up in no time and guarantee it was squared.

Even if it were square section, I'd probably put it in my 4 jaw and turn it. Surface milling is quite time consuming.

C

 

[Shayne]

Thats sorted then Chris has a lathe that will except 6x6 inch steel get him to make you one .

 

[Chris]

Hmm, steel not really the right stuff. I have a load of Nylatron which would be good. It machines very well.

Have you looked into buying the spacers Shayne - they aren't that expensive. Even the ones I got from Oz weren't that bad. Sure I have seen some UK ones since then. With the cones in place it's a much easier job - or of course you could stick some 80 springs in the back. That hardly needs any tools. Looking at Steve's it would probably be about right.

C

 

[Shayne]

I can't find anything that will stack tidy with the cone bumpstop so today i took a different approach . I took the bumpstop around all the engineering workshops i could find locally and asked if they could simply make a copy of the top 2 inches but instead of the 10mm flange at the top i wanted 50mm . The reactions i got beggars belief , white faces and scratching heads humming and harring . I made more complicated things on a lathe when i was in school . To be fair though those that did want to help either didn't have suitable material or didn't have adequate machinery .

I guess thats just the modern world - everythings imported and nothings made from scratch . My preference would be aluminium but it looks like i'd have to buy it in billet and then look for a workshop .

80 springs would work but i'd want very old ones . The spacer and spring combination by some lucky fluke works really well on my front end so i really want the same on the back .

 

[clivehorridge]

Just a thought Steven, will you need to replace the shocks with a longer pair? In theory you'll be running at almost full droop unladen and its likely that on rises you'll be topping out on the shocks at full extension. Am I on a logical train of thought?

I also had to chuckle at the rubber bump stops after the fit. Guess you can throw them away, the axle will not be going anywhere near them after that lift!

My 80 went up by 95mm when I fitted a 75mm lift kit, but it soon came back to 75mm when I fitted the ARB bumpers front and rear and the winch. I know what you mean about the "feel" of the 80 springs. They're "soft" but not wallowy somehow, no bad thing at all. I can hit some nasty potholes (especially going over manholes with the covers missing) and you hardly feel it in the car. Ace!

Good job done there by the looks of it, enjoy!

 

[Chris Green90]

Just a thought Steven, will you need to replace the shocks with a longer pair? In theory you'll be running at almost full droop unladen and its likely that on rises you'll be topping out on the shocks at full extension. Am I on a logical train of thought?

I also had to chuckle at the rubber bump stops after the fit. Guess you can throw them away, the axle will not be going anywhere near them after that lift!

My 80 went up by 95mm when I fitted a 75mm lift kit, but it soon came back to 75mm when I fitted the ARB bumpers front and rear and the winch. I know what you mean about the "feel" of the 80 springs. They're "soft" but not wallowy somehow, no bad thing at all. I can hit some nasty potholes (especially going over manholes with the covers missing) and you hardly feel it in the car. Ace!

Good job done there by the looks of it, enjoy!

Steven has done the same as me and mated the 80 fronts up with IM +5-100mm shocks (Or whatever size they are calling them now) so shouldn't be quite as bad as with standard shocks. I am still on the lookout for some 80 rear shocks to complement the spring I have on the back just to gain that extra inch or so.

 

[Chris]

Shayne, should have said - have a look in your yellow pages etc for Pattern Makers. They really are the boys for this. They work in just about every material, are used to odd shapes and generally 'get' what people are trying to do. One off jobs are their speciality too. Forget engineering workshops, they'll want drawings and tolerances etc. All you want is a ring with a lip around it. It's not hard. The hole down the middle by the way doesn't have to taper to suit the cone. It only has to fit against the widest part at the bottom so that it doesn't wiggle around. It's an incredibly simple shape. Go and look in your local caravan place too. They have these sorts of things in. They may have a match. Or BUY some. These are only $20. http://www.man-a-fre.com/pa/80seriescoilspringspacers.htm

Hopefully there will still be some pattern makers around.

C

 

[Shayne]

If you can find me some i will buy them money is not the problem . I'm out of time i gotta go back to work soon and last time i left i didn't get home for 9 months . I figured an engineering workshop could knock this up in 5 minutes and while i expected it to cost a bit more i expected it to be quicker than shipping something halfway around the world .

I guess i'm just old fashioned .

 

[sae70]

That's all very very interesting that lot there Chris As you say it's nothing that you've not spent time investigating and talking to many others about in the the past, way back when............I know because I've spent the last couple of weeks burning the midnight oil looking through anything 90/95 series suspension related on the net Those photos are now missing from off of your original post on this subject Chris, back on TLCOC and as said peeps having already been running all of these mods for many years already including the use of 80 series front springs in the rear of a Collie/Prado. This is more a refresher course if you like

So, when I left on the school run this morning there she sat in the cold light of day and I would think no longer able to fit under the height restriction at the local dump!!! She looked way too jacked up to be useful and I spent the morning pondering if I'd got it wrong before I had a chance to get back home to have a play with her.

Here's some numbers;

Now here's the thing, following my many hours spent trawling the 'Net for suspension lift information there seemed to be little use of a standard point of reference in terms of what everyone is measuring so I measured the lot (top of rim, center of rim, bottom of rim, ground) all from the underside of my plastic arch body molding, through the center of each wheel down to the ground.

Like this;

Now for me this works and I can see any difference in height due to different springs or loads as I'm always measuring from the same point on my own truck in the same place on my own cobbled block paving (I'll come back to this in a mo'). Now if you have 255 tyres like me then the tip of your tape will touch the plastic molding in roughly the same place, but if you have this size tyre with wheel spacers or even a different sized tyre say a 285 or even a 305 then your tape tip will touch the molding further out to the outside edge and if measuring from there on my truck I could add up to 1.5cm to each of my measurements as the molding is not parallel to the ground. I guess what I'm saying is that everyone's measurements are going to have differences dependent upon there own circumstances and that you should bear this in mind throughout.

Just quickly, how do I know I'm always pretty much parked in the same place for any measuring. Well I've had a cross marked on my paving for some time now and so long as I park my truck parallel to the paving with the rear of my tow bar central and in line with the cross and can make a pretty good comparison measurement between test drives

So, my findings;

I'm only going to use the averaged measurements for each side of the truck from the plastic molding to the top of my rim to keep things less cluttered.

These were the measurements I took of my SWB manual 3.0TD 90 series Colorado/Prado with an Ironman 'B' spec suspension lift front and rear. Nothing in the boot (no load), no fuel (orange fuel light is on) and with the back seats fitted (being a shorty it only has one row of back seats and these are the ones I'm speaking of).

FRONT 320mm

REAR 335mm

OK, so now the same measurement with everything exactly the same as above except the rear Ironman springs have now been replaced with new KYB standard 80 series front springs (part number RF2574).

FRONT 315mm

REAR 405mm

I'll let you do the maffs

One last point to make is that when I bought my IM suspension kit it was sold as a 35mm lift. It would appear that it is now sold as a 45mm lift. So if we average these two figures and say that I had an 40mm lift from my IM suspension kit and discounting any sag that there may have been from two years of good use then one could say that I've gained a 110mm lift over standard by fitting the 80 series standard front springs.

 

[Chris]

So are you saying it's a bit taller then Steven?

Generally speaking.

C

 

[sae70]

Blimey You guys have slipped another 11 posts in while I was typing that lot

 

[sae70]

So are you saying it's a bit taller then Steven?

Generally speaking.

C

I tried to take a photo of me stood next to it this morning as she towered above me, but no timer function on the ol' iPhone! It felt like she was at least a foot taller than me

 

[Chris Green90]

These have been measured from top of wheel rim so if you add 20.3cm it should give the distance from wheel center.

That being said

My measurements are

Standard offside front: 30cm (after lift = 41.3cm) Gained 11.2cm (4.4")
Standard nearside front: 32.5cm (after lift = 41.2m) Gained 8.7cm (3.4")
Standard offside rear: 30cm (after lift = 43.2cm) Gained 13.2cm (5.2")
Standard nearside rear: 31cm (after lift = 43.2cm) Gained 12.2cm (4.8")

Seems odd that I seemed to have gained a little more than you there Steven even giving tolerance for me having 265's on and also I think a bigger off set than you (not sure) especially when my rears were used.

Edit: Thought it was just worth mentioning that I also had no fuel and rear seats in but also my empty boxes (1 sheet of OSB)

 

[sae70]

Time to start loading her up then

Starting point 405mm

So I chuck my everyday gear back in, shelving unit, tools, spares and some recovery kit all in about 90Kg.

This lot lives in the truck & is never removed;

I'm fitting a new LED light into the rear door at the moment, so I've chucked all of the rear door panel bits in so as not to effect the data

New measurement 385mm

New look;

But still no fuel Luckily I keep some fuel in store for my 'Day of the Zombies' scenario and I've a small stock of Veg oil also

So 60Ltrs of fuel in the back and before anyone says 'what about the weight of the jerry can' I only fill 'em with 18Ltrs

New measurement 375mm

Mmmm..starting to look good me thinks, lets fill the tank

Another 30Ltrs of fuel;

New look;

New measurement 365mm

OK, so that's pretty much everyday running except for my weight

Time for my Off-Road kit box, Hi-Lift, waffles, recovery chain, blocks of wood, spade, large axle stand and a few misc other bits, 60Kg

This lots in the truck 60/70% of the time and always when away for a weekends fun

New measurement 375mm

Mmmm..shes gone up Ah, no fuel 60 Ltrs of fuel back in with Off-Road kit box;

New look;

New measurement 360mm

Now the fun starts, decided to load it up for a weekend away in Wales with the two boys and camping with 60Ltrs of fuel

All the camping gear including tent, bedding, chairs, stoves, cooking gear etc.

This 20Kg weight represents water, food and clothes.

I've also got in there the two boys in their car seats and my daughter sat in the drivers seat representing me. There's also another 60Kg of weight in the drivers footwell

New look;

Final measurements;

FRONT 310mm

REAR 340mm

I can live with all of this and would very happily drive off up into Wales for a weekends fun without touching the front suspension at all.

I didn't get time to test drive her all loaded up, but I shall do so tomorrow and let you know my thoughts.

 

[Shayne]

Fully loaded it looks exactly as i hope mine will look if i ever get the rear spacers . The back of my trucks for shopping and little else i need a trailer when i move stuff .

Its just occurred to me that i've been looking for 90 coil spacers and if an 80 spring fits yours then a spacer meant for an 80 would likely work fine for me , what do you think Steven ?

 

[sae70]

Its just occurred to me that i've been looking for 90 coil spacers and if an 80 spring fits yours then a spacer meant for an 80 would likely work fine for me , what do you think Steven ?

I was going to point you toward this thread and nearly didn't as you'd posted in it, but these may work for you maybe http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forums/showthread.php/48136-80-series-spring-spacers

What is it that you do for a living Shayne that has you away from home for so long?

 

[sae70]

I had another play as well.

Whilst unloading her I thought 'I wonder what she'd look like with a pair of front spacers in', so I jacked her up 30mm and then 40mm at the front. She still had 150Kg of kit in her, plus the equivalent of a full tank of fuel.

Rear end measurement would be about 360mm

30mm up at the front;

40mm up at the front;

Here with the 80 springs in, no load and no fuel;

And here, full load for weekend away and 2/3rds of a tank of fuel;

 

[Shayne]

Cheers for the link no 50mm there but i will give them a ring tomorrow . I basically own a commercial fishing boat which should by its very nature run itself , but its based something like 500 miles away and capable and reliable crew are becoming rarer than hen's teeth nowadays .

 

[Chris]

Shayne, that's why I posted you a link to those 80 spacers last night. Never mind, you got there in the end.

Steven, I'd be tempted to lift the front a little still. It has that slightly arse end up look about it. Wouldn't need much in the way of a top spacer. Clearly it's not going to compress much more. I can't believe you fitted that lot in! How a bout a roof rack. You could get a kitchen sink up there.

C

 

[sae70]

Steven, I'd be tempted to lift the front a little still. It has that slightly arse end up look about it. Wouldn't need much in the way of a top spacer. Clearly it's not going to compress much more.

I agree Chris, she'd not only look a little better but should perform a little better off road with a small lift at the front. I just need to have a little bit more of a play and head scratch before deciding upon a spacer thickness. As you mentioned there seems to be a number of slightly differing results from fitting top spacers and although the rule of thumb is (LIFT=2 x SPACER thickness) even Shayne has slightly more lift than twice the thickness of his 25.4mm spacer (55mm). There's a couple of people that read about fitting a 6mm spacer due to this allegedly being the maximum thickness one can fit using the original bolts. The chap that appeared to be the pioneer of the 6mm spacer reported that he could not detect any real change in the suspension height and the second never reported back. This makes me think that its not such a linear result that one would get from a top spacer and that maybe you need 10/15mm to push down enough to get the lift started. The chap that gleaned the greatest amount of information and confidence from to have a go myself, is running a 3.0TD LWB Prado originally on IM 'B' springs all round. He replaced the rear springs with 80 series front springs and the rear shocks with 80 series rear shocks and he then went on to fit 15mm top spacers on top of his IM 'B' front springs and IM struts and reports to be over the moon. So I'm thinking that this is where I'm heading as it's a proven modification with results measured over a period of time, but!! I would just like to work out how much my 45Kg front winch install has dropped the front suspension and add this to the 15mm spacer thickness if the CV angles and top wishbone mount don't look to be massively effected, so probably looking at a 20mm spacer for 40mm lift. I have to say in all of this I've not been unhappy with the way that my IM suspension has worked in terms of ride and flex and am still very happy with the front ends flex and ride it just needs to be a little bit taller at the front and I wanted it to carry more load at the rear while still maintaing the lift.

I can't believe you fitted that lot in! How a bout a roof rack. You could get a kitchen sink up there.

I'd buy a LWB before fitting a roof rack