strange starting problem

[Beau]

I know it's not the battery Shayne... I've changed my starter contacts a couple months ago when this began and that helped spin the engine over quicker... But I remember even in really cold temps on a weak battery it would only take one engine cycle at most to start. I'm going through at least 2-3 seconds of cranking which is more than just a weak battery... I'm used to just blipping the key and the engine starts instantly. If I turn the engine off, and start within 5 seconds or so it starts back instantly so I know it's fuel pressure related... Will get there eventually

 

[StarCruiser]

Does it help if you pump up the primer on top of the filter before starting?

 

[Shayne]

I wouldn't be so sure mate , a warm engine will start much easier than a cold one and a dying battery behaves differently from a weak one .

I wouldn't have it that i needed new batteries in the boat when i charged them myself up to 14v and after a week without much use they still showed 14 , so i basically fleeced myself by paying mechanical engineers to not find fault and a marine electronics engineer to not find fault . New batteries problem solved

 

[Beau]

Pumping the primer doesn't seem to make anything different. I have installed a one way valve after the pump as well, so I know for sure fuel can't just drain back. The more I think about it, the more it's looking like something on this pump. It's meant to be a new pump as well... I might swap it with my old one and see how that turns out.

Batteries were tested not too long ago and came back fine. They crank the engine over fast

 

[StarCruiser]

I wonder if there is any common ground with this new thread.

http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56875

Is yours the E version, in other words does it have spill control valves?

If so, I believe they can be suspect.

 

[Shayne]

Just because there is nowhere else to mention it and because your the forums expert on these pumps Beau i thought i would mention that i have come to wonder about how turning up the fuel actually works . If you recall i decided to return my fuel screw to point zero (full off if you like) because i had lost track of where it was originally , with the intention of nudging it up over a time until i felt i had it right .
I did lose power at the lowest setting but i have only turned it up about a quarter turn and its been left like that ever since . So about 3 full turns from zero to just one quarter turn from zero seems to give the same results which has me trying to picture whats inside could be just a rotating gate that cannot be fully closed and can only be adjusted to a 180 degree turn before it returns to zero regardless of which way you turn it .

An unimportant curiosity is all and not relevant to anything i just figured if i make you curios you will probably pull it apart to find out

 

[Beau]

Just because there is nowhere else to mention it and because your the forums expert on these pumps Beau i thought i would mention that i have come to wonder about how turning up the fuel actually works . If you recall i decided to return my fuel screw to point zero (full off if you like) because i had lost track of where it was originally , with the intention of nudging it up over a time until i felt i had it right .
I did lose power at the lowest setting but i have only turned it up about a quarter turn and its been left like that ever since . So about 3 full turns from zero to just one quarter turn from zero seems to give the same results which has me trying to picture whats inside could be just a rotating gate that cannot be fully closed and can only be adjusted to a 180 degree turn before it returns to zero regardless of which way you turn it .

An unimportant curiosity is all and not relevant to anything i just figured if i make you curios you will probably pull it apart to find out

I've pulled one apart already Shayne There's nothing much too it really... It's a powerful electromagnet that basically pulses some ridiculous amount of times in a minute. The duration of the pulse affects how much fuel is pushed through to the injectors, working in harmony with the timing control valve right underneath it. I think adjusting the nut may adjust some kind of preload tension on the plunger, allowing that duration gap to increase marginally.

Some people have had various results with tuning this way. I've even read forums where people haven't noticed any change. I know in my case, the more I increase the fueling, I can visibly see more black smoke out the back as it's over fueling, though when driving this clears up a lot. I believe from standard, these trucks run more leaner on the higher rev range than bottom, hence the low down torque, and kinda gutless power after 3k. Increasing the fuel on this will increase throughout the range so I would expect the engine would run a bit richer on the lower rpm band but feel a bit more powerful on the top end. Being a diesel though, power on the bottom end is what we want, hence why it's hard to feel the increase in power unless you're actually revving the life out these things...

Get a EGT Guage and you'll be able to tune it perfectly!

Starcruiser - I've been helping that person over messaging for the last few days. There problem is a hot start thing.

Heres some pics of when I took apart my spill control valve...Enjoy

 

[Beau]

P.S Does anyone have a spare Injector pump lying around...

 

[Shayne]

i should have known you had already been at it . It definitely makes a difference on my truck i basically use black smoke at a standstill v how it feels to drive to guide me when setting it and i'm convinced it only gives results to a point after which you are belting out clouds of smog for no reason .

You have just given me a genuine reason to fit the EGR gauge that i've had lying around for ages , i have never worried much about heat since i fixed the cowl problem which had my factory temperature gauge go well into the danger zone several times but even then throttle down and it would take about 30 seconds for the temp to drop even while maintaining motorway speed and i've fitted a new rad a lower degree stat since .

It hadn't occurred to me heat would give me another indicator by which to measure fueling i might have to stop fussing about where the gauge goes and just get it in .

 

[Shayne]

P.S Does anyone have a spare Injector pump lying around...

You are joking ?

 

[Beau]

i should have known you had already been at it . It definitely makes a difference on my truck i basically use black smoke at a standstill v how it feels to drive to guide me when setting it and i'm convinced it only gives results to a point after which you are belting out clouds of smog for no reason .

You have just given me a genuine reason to fit the EGR gauge that i've had lying around for ages , i have never worried much about heat since i fixed the cowl problem which had my factory temperature gauge go well into the danger zone several times but even then throttle down and it would take about 30 seconds for the temp to drop even while maintaining motorway speed and i've fitted a new rad a lower degree stat since .

It hadn't occurred to me heat would give me another indicator by which to measure fueling i might have to stop fussing about where the gauge goes and just get it in .

You can always wire it in just for tuning purposes, but I've read in general, a EGT gauge is probably the best out the lot. They say if you drive by it (meaning back off when it gets too hot) you'll never cook your engine.

Also, when you tune it to the point where it smokes, have you tried to increase your boost to lean back out the mixture, or are you maxed out on factory boost with your stock controller?

 

[Shayne]

Air and fuel go hand in hand for me i started out messing with 2 stroke bikes to see how fast i could make them go before it seized , it was fun if a little painful at times

tuning is a gap filler when i'm bored and it feels like i have spent the last 6 months just fixing things that needed to be fixed so i haven't played with the boost controller or even thought about it , new years plan was to fit my xmas present then ignore the truck until i have a garage which might actually get started this year if i leave the damn truck alone

I get what your saying about cooking the engine but my thoughts on the egr are more to do with finding the best fuel air ratio , at present i can only match standstill smoke against performance but with an egr gauge i can read the temp as rich or lean while on boost which is when having the right fuel air mix really matters .

 

[Beau]

Totally understand, I have a long list of stuff to do to mine, but finding the time is difficult. My main priorities right now is sorting out this starting issue, testing out the reliability of the truck out and undercoating the bottom!

You kinda answered what I was gonna say, which was that having the EGT Gauge doesn't only warn you of extreme temps, but you'll be able to tell when your mixture is too lean/too rich. Although there are multiple aspects which you'll need to look into. From what I've read, running more on the richer side can lower your combustion temps, but will increase your turbo and EGT temps. So finding the right balance is what you want...

And nope, I'm not joking about the injector pump. I have a brand new one on the engine at the moment, and I can swap back to my old one, but it also means swapping the RPM and spill control valve which is messy. I'd rather put a good condition second hand one in that I know for sure was working when it came off a engine!

 

[Shayne]

Damn on the pump , there's not much anyone can teach you about fuel related issues on these motors so have you forgotten anything dodgy filter housing maybe ?

 

[Beau]

Damn on the pump , there's not much anyone can teach you about fuel related issues on these motors so have you forgotten anything dodgy filter housing maybe ?

haha no worries Shayne, I'll get there eventually. It's the faffing about that probably caused this issue when I was first chasing this long start issue when it turned out to be the warped head (Still can't believe I managed to repair that).

I swapped pumps over 3-4 times and with that the SCV and RPM sensor which are pretty delicate items. I'm thinking it's the Spill control valve as when it starts up theres no black smoke, indicating that the valve is late to open. A bad crank position sensor can also cause this, but those never go on these trucks, and it would also shoot a check engine. I've also checked the sensors resistance which is within spec.

Someone on the forum has a second hand pump, just hoping it's in good nick! Will most likely get it and see if there's any change.

 

[Beau]

Just thought I'd give a small update on the engine.

Did a 200 mile round trip last night and the cruiser drove excellent. Temps didn't move and power is great. Still in the "precautionary testing stage" so didn't push too much, but the engine felt pretty strong cruising at 90 mph with plenty more peddle travel.

Most noticeable differences are less throttle, and I'm holding speed over hills without additional throttle input like before. Seems torque is really there. I also accidentally spun up the two front wheels exiting a corner too brisk. That totally caught me by surprise in totally dry weather

 

[Beau]

Would someone be so kind and check there pump alignment out for me, just so I can confirm I have mine set right. I've been noticing how clean the exhaust gases have been since the head job, and don't know if it's down to the timing being slightly leaner or just because of the cleaner head. I've also been getting good fuel economy like I mentioned before, nearly 400 miles with in town driving, that's never happened before. I have my pump timed exactly as this manual suggest, but it could be wrong, as a couple other details within this manual have been wrong.


There should be a line on the pump which is in line with the notch on the mounting casting, as shown above. If someone could check there's out and let me know that'd be great.

 

[Shayne]

I've just been out to check and that looks right to me .

I can't see why a new head would lead to cleaner exhaust gas , if your running to lean it would explain you getting better than new fuel consumption and the starting problems , but i definitely lose power when running too lean

 

[Beau]

I've just been out to check and that looks right to me .

I can't see why a new head would lead to cleaner exhaust gas , if your running to lean it would explain you getting better than new fuel consumption and the starting problems , but i definitely lose power when running too lean

Thanks for checking. I don't necessarily mean new head, but I did re-seat the valves, port the inlet and exhaust ports and the intake and exhaust manifolds, and the turbo manifolds as well. It's just surprisingly really as I'm used to a touch of black smoke on at least start up. Now I get none at all on start up and driving. I just advanced the timing but didn't change the starting up. I'll run it like this for a bit anyway and see how she goes. I've got the fueling tuned about one full turn clockwise from standard setting so I wouldn't say I'm running on the lean side. Plus the power is there...

Just somethings not right... With the head job, I completely removed the EGR Pipe work, and though the vacuum lines are connected plus ones blocked, could this somehow interfere with the ECU? It's the only real change I made....

It's not pretty consistent. About 3-4 seconds, then fires. If I switch off and start back instantly it's the same thing.

 

[Shayne]

What did you remove just the pipe from exhaust manifold to the egr valve ?

As we talked about earlier in this thread turning up the fuel is something of a mystery still , i can get the same results from half turn as i get from 3 full turns on the screw and as you said some get no joy at all . I would use smoke as your indicator , turn it up see if it cures your starting problem and if it does you can work at finding the lowest fuel setting without the worry .