ABS or not?

[Chas]

My two cents worth, ABS does not improve braking, it prevents your brakes from working.

Bugger, I should have said that to Toyota Bristol when I hit their wall.

 

[Shayne]

Twice i've seen a child fatally hit by a car , both in a 30mph zone and both drivers slammed on . Both drivers were blameless . I got told off by my the instructor during my driving test for coasting with a foot on the clutch and the other on the brake , i said there's a kid on a pushbike in front of that parked bus aiming to cross the road . I don't like abs because if i hit stop i don't want the car to reply "yeah in a minute" .

 

[Beau]

Twice i've seen a child fatally hit by a car , both in a 30mph zone and both drivers slammed on . Both drivers were blameless . I got told off by my the instructor during my driving test for coasting with a foot on the clutch and the other on the brake , i said there's a kid on a pushbike in front of that parked bus aiming to cross the road . I don't like abs because if i hit stop i don't want the car to reply "yeah in a minute" .

Totally agree Shayne, and I think we've had a similar discussion to this on a different thread. ABS when tuned right does work good though. In my Cadillac Escalade here is squeals the tyres to a stop, compared to that coasting feeling you have with the land cruiser. I've had to break in a emergency with the 90 in England and I had a minor indecent because it just kept going. I know if I didn't have ABS I would have stopped well before because there is just so much more breaking potential and grip!

I really do think someone needs to find a way to modify the ABS to interfere less and let the breaks break harder before cutting in...hmm thoughts?

 

[Dave2000]

Hmmm....this could trundle on. IMO an ABS system in good working condition senses the wheels as they are at the biting point of locking and then releases and re-applies, it is this difference between skidding and not. In a genuine emergency you do not have the time to do 'cadence' braking, comb your hair/check your make up and so forth.

Incidentally, if you press the clutch down and hold while still rolling you are 'coasting' this is illegal, you are not considered to be in control of the vehicle.

ABS on tarmac does win without doubt, in an emergency, ABS on gravel TURN IT OFF if you can, the ABS cannot detect accurately when the wheel is to lock and then unlock it, with the ABS off the wheels lock and the tyres 'plough' under the gravel and the wheel effectively digs in, when rallying on the loose ABS was switched OFF.

regards

Dave

 

[Dave2000]

Here you go!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKiTAcXK6M4&spfreload=10

Yes it is an advert and you do not have to believe everything you are told but again, the test driver during test knew where his braking point was, he was concentrating on that point, his only plan was to slam on the brakes as hard as he could do to carry out the test. He 'may' have been able to stop the car shorter without ABS given the time and practice, I maintain IMO ABS in a panic situation wins every time.

regards

Dave

 

[toolsplus]

on newer Rallye bikes abs is switchable
i would never use it on or offroad 'cause there was a big difference in braking power and feel

with jeeps i'm a newbie
must admit i like it on the tarmac 'cause you can relax and wait for the potential accident and just bang 'em hard
'cause accidents never seem to happen when you're ready...

on the dirt i'd rather feel what's happening and react
'cause whenever i'm on the dirt it's to have fun
i like to drive without any electronic 'aids',like traction control,hillassist etc


would be nice to have a switch to turn the abs off when you want to play


cheers

 

[Chas]

would be nice to have a switch to turn the abs off when you want to play


cheers

In low range ABS is switched off, is that 'switch' accessible to parallel another switch inside the cab?

 

[nlbyrne]

Yes there's pros and cons to nearly everything. You can't be prepared for every occasion. Yes ABS is a great invention they work great on modern cars, my van has it and it works great. Maybe the newer braking systems are tuned better so they don't come on till a certain pressure is applied or when you lose traction with the surface. I found with the cruiser it came on to quickly when you don't really need it. I have newish BFG AT on and have driven in most conditions and only in snow, driving fast have thought yes ABS would have been good on some occasions. If you can tune an ABS system on a cruiser I'd add it to the list of things to do.

I'm not that old but have only had non ABS cars for years even the wife's shopping cart (01'micra) doesn't have ABS, you get used to it know the limits, read the road. Definitely for the non experienced driver modern driving aids are great and have saved lives. But when you panic and slam on the brakes the chances are most people will not steer around the obstruction but brace for impact.

 

[Shayne]

Dave your underestimating human capability , the tractor incident i mention gives about 200ft braking while travelling at 95mph , i walked away from that as i have done more times than i can remember . I spent most of my young life not exactly suicidal but hell bent on self destruction sort of daring the grim reaper to come and get me and was known far and wide as a time bomb waiting to go off or an accident waiting to happen i am no stranger to "genuine emergency" .

We have all heard survivors talking about events happening in slow motion and i watched a very interesting documentary once about scientific study of the phenomenon . In a study that was beautiful in its simplicity they offered a bunch of people a prize in a competition . All these people had to do was move a cursor and click on a dot when it appeared on a blank computer screen , the fastest gets the prize . Each were given 10 attempts and times and accuracy were recorded .

Then they told each competitor individually they were involved in a tiebreak for first place and could have 3 more attempts . On the last attempt a gunshot was sounded at exactly the same time as the dot appeared on the screen and in reflex every competitor showed more than a 100% improvement on their previous best time and precision .

Maybe it is just that LC abs are crap and maybe others are better ? in theory its a great idea but .....................

 

[uHu]

If a vehicle is used mainly offroad and on gravel (unpaved roads), then ABS is only in the way. In fact, it can double the stopping distance on a loose surface.

Generally, dynamic friction is lower than static friction, meaning: a wheel that doesn't skid has a better grip than a locked wheel screeching along the surface.
But on gravel and similar, the stopping is better with a locked wheel, or nearly locked; the ABS will let the wheel roll too much to give good braking (I suppose it's because the gravel under the wheel will roll or move a bit, making the wheel rotate slower, which will make the abs let up the brakes, and sh!t: No Stopping).
I've been on hilly gravel roads where the ABS wouldn't let me reduce the speed going downhill, while there is really no problem at all stopping without abs; or e.g. driving up the hill, even with 2-wheel drive.
Also on ice, with studded tyres, the dynamic friction (skidding) is higher than static friction, so that's another situation where ABS is "in the way" of good/safe braking.

But generally, for most cars on the highway, ABS is good.

 

[Dave2000]

WITHOUT MALICE
​

Shayne the example of the ‘shoot the dot’ or whatever was a ‘controlled’ scenario so of little use as evidence. If I said drive down 'X' road really fast and a small child will run out between the red car and the blue car on the right you would be prepared and drive/brake accordingly, that is not speculation that is fact.

To the ‘tractor incident’,

[Shane quoted] Bikes have always had abs - its called a gearbox when you come around a corner and find a tractor trailer crossing the road from one field to the next you crash down the box while applying as much brake pressure as you dare while choosing a point of impact that might allow you to survive.[Unquote]

It is my understanding that if you ‘crash down the box’ you risk the rear wheel locking? I have no real knowledge of motorbike gearboxes but would have assumed the sudden drop in ratio against the compression of the engine would have created an ‘engine braking’ scenario and perhaps aggravate the possibility of a rear wheel lock up? Someone with more knowledge would need to help me with that so I have to reserve judgment at this time.

[Shane quoted] the tractor incident I mention gives about 200ft braking while travelling at 95mph, [Unquote]

Again I admit knowing little about motorbikes but this web site states a braking distance of 300 feet @ 90 MPH this is the stopping distance and does not allow for thinking and response time.

http://www.motorvike.com/BrakingDistance.htm

The next one below is more realistic as it puts the braking distance from ‘OH SHIT A TRACTOR AND TRAILER CROSSING THE ROAD 200 FEET AWAY AND I NEED TO PUT ON THE BRAKES AT 95 MPH!

Their apparently very thorough testing shows that at 95 MPH you need 476.18 feet to stop! So this would indicate an error of distance judgement on your part of around 276 FEET? Of course if you had ABS then you would ‘only’ have needed 433.57 feet!

http://bikesafer.com/detail/braketime.html

I am pretty much done with this debate as regardless of the amount evidence offered for ABS weighed against very little 'speculation' leads me to believe I am wasting my time, did you know some people still maintain the earth is flat?

As further reason for giving up I offer the following:

[Shane quoted] i walked away from that as I have done more times than i can remember. [Unquote]

Just how many accidents have you had Shane?

[Shane quoted] Dave your underestimating human capability[Unquote]

Your right Shane, I have completely underestimated the human capability to not learn from his or her mistakes, and continue putting his own life and that of others at risk.

Off to have a Boxing Day diet coke with some buddies, take it easy out there and enjoy the rest of the holiday.

Regards

Dave

 

[Dave2000]

is that 'switch' accessible to parallel another switch inside the cab?

Yes look up CDL switch modification.

regards

Dave

 

[Towpack]

​

[Shane quoted] Bikes have always had abs - its called a gearbox when you come around a corner and find a tractor trailer crossing the road from one field to the next you crash down the box while applying as much brake pressure as you dare while choosing a point of impact that might allow you to survive.[Unquote]

It is my understanding that if you ‘crash down the box’ you risk the rear wheel locking? I have no real knowledge of motorbike gearboxes but would have assumed the sudden drop in ratio against the compression of the engine would have created an ‘engine braking’ scenario and perhaps aggravate the possibility of a rear wheel lock up? Someone with more knowledge would need to help me with that so I have to reserve judgment at this time.

Dave,

You are absolutely correct with your down shifting/wheel locking assumption. I've been riding both on and off road for well over 30 years now but anyone who's ridden a bike for more than a few miles, especially a big 4 stroke, will/should know this. The big difference in braking performance between bikes and cars apart from the obvious one of much narrower tyres and only 2 of them is weight transfer under braking. On a bike the transfer can easily be 100% meaning the back wheel is barely skimming the road surface or even up in the air. This is not an uncommon scenario in everyday, spirited 'sports' riding so in an emergency stop situation it's a given fact that the back wheel will be next to useless as far as slowing the bike down is concerned. With so little weight on the rear wheel and hence grip, it will lock at the drop of a hat. JMO

 

[toolsplus]

In low range ABS is switched off, is that 'switch' accessible to parallel another switch inside the cab?

good idea
but i've given up on my 120
it's my daily drive,soft-roader

can't wait til the 80 arrives
that'll be the dirt-toy...

 

[Towpack]

In low range ABS is switched off, is that 'switch' accessible to parallel another switch inside the cab?

I'm assuming you mean switching off the ABS without locking the CD? The short answer is no but I dare say something could be wired in. If I understand the setup correctly the difflock ECU sends a signal to the ABS ECU when the CD is locked, disabling ABS. You'd have to locate the wire(s) used to send this signal and wire in a switch in the cab. You'd also need to know what the 'signal' is, earth, +12v or maybe some other voltage?
Another possible way of doing it would be to wire in a switch from the fused supply to the ABS ECU so you could cut the power to it which would amount to pulling the fuse which some seem to do to disable ABS permanently........maybe???
Don't want to sound like an old woman but would this not have insurance ramifications?
JMO

 

[Towpack]

I really do think someone needs to find a way to modify the ABS to interfere less and let the breaks break harder before cutting in...hmm thoughts?

The ABS has an ECU so must run to a map or program of sorts. It's almost certainly not of the re-programmable type and finding someone who can hack into it and do so on such an old vehicle could be a problem. Be interesting to look inside one and see if it uses a removable ROM.

Went out this morning in several inches of snow and purposely tried the ABS and was surprised how hard I had to hit the pedal to bring it in. I do have nearly new BFG AT's all-round so pretty good grip compared to a more road biased tyre I guess.

 

[Chas]

I'm assuming you mean switching off the ABS without locking the CD? The short answer is no but I dare say something could be wired in. If I understand the setup correctly the difflock ECU sends a signal to the ABS ECU when the CD is locked, disabling ABS. You'd have to locate the wire(s) used to send this signal and wire in a switch in the cab. You'd also need to know what the 'signal' is, earth, +12v or maybe some other voltage?
Another possible way of doing it would be to wire in a switch from the fused supply to the ABS ECU so you could cut the power to it which would amount to pulling the fuse which some seem to do to disable ABS permanently........maybe???
Don't want to sound like an old woman but would this not have insurance ramifications?
JMO

Yes I did mean without locking up, I did think of switching the supply to the fuse but I imagine the fuse holder is part of some sort of circuit board below which would make it more difficult if not impossible.

 

[Shayne]

I had a death wish from the age of about 12 to 21 and i'm sorry if that upsets your sensibilities Dave if it makes you feel any better i wised up at 21 when my best mate was killed in an accident . For the next 7 years i don't recall a single incident where i had to brake hard . When i was 28 i was blamed for an accident so severe it took the hospital 3 weeks to decide i wasn't going to die so they should start treatment . I fought that all the way to the high court and it was ruled my driving contributed zero percent to the accident . 10 years of chopping bits out of me and nailing me back together meant i couldn't drive or ride or for long periods even walk . When i was 40 i took my first driving lesson and passed my driving test the following day .

You missed the point of the test - nobody was warned about the gunshot and it was the reflex reaction to that unexpected circumstance which produced the 100% improvement but enough said life experience and so opinions will differ and thats what makes conversation interesting . Enjoy your hols

 

[chapel gate]

i pulled all traces of the ABS dave, bulb, pump and wires, front sensors. left the backs in cos I haven't been in there for a while..

I would agree abs would work better in wet conditions on tarmac in a stand on the brakes situation. especially braking on a bend.

in snow, ice and mud I find it down right dangerous.

I could live with it by leaving the fuse out and putting it back in for the mot. one day I put the fuse back in and the light stayed on. I read the fault codes and two sensors were down. that's when it all went.

 

[Derek]

My abs light comes on when I go into low with centre diff lock. It never use to before I had an incident on loose gravel where the abs shat itself and the brake pedal just vibrated and almost ended up on my roof.

When slowing to a stop at about 10-5mph the pedal has a wee vibrate then I stop. Mate said I need to check the abs rings.

If the whole system is A ok it shouldn't have any problems.

Think I would struggle to lock and skid with big 35's on a road surface.