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Dual Battery setup?

Steveindar

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Nov 17, 2014
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tanzania
Could someone explain in simple terms why my 80 has two battery's? Is the wiring all 24v or 12v with the battery's in parallel or bits of both? And what does what?
I haven't managed to track down a wiring diagram yet, does anyone have a soft copy??

Cheers
 
It has two batteries because someone decided to make it more complicated than it ever needed to be.

Your vehicle is 12v. It runs everything at 12v lights, horn, wipers etc.

But when you start the engine, it uses a relay on the inner wing to connect the batteries into series momentarily and sends 24v to the starter motor. OK it gives it an almighty whizz to get it going, but it's completely unnecessary. It's quite complicated because clearly it doesn't want any of the 24v to escape into the wiring loom and fry your car.

I have removed all of that system, replaced the starter with a 12v one and it starts just like it used to. But now I don't have complicated electrics on an old car.
 
As Chris's comments above really, I think when the LC was designed the brief was it had to be reliable in all weathers, had to be faster and stronger, better equipped, they even fitted glow plugs into a direct injection engine, not needed but fitted anyway, this and a load of other stuff that current (at the time) Land Rovers did not have. Without doubt the LC 80 really did take the crown and has shown to be all of the above and more. The engine was also used in a bus in other countries and if you know anything about heavy commercials they are 24v, this had been carried over with the engine and without doubt in the middle of Siberia this would have been a perfect setup however, in the UK and Spain where I live the complicated system is unnecessary.

I did not like taking my vehicle into remote places knowing you needed 24v to start the car, this with a preference for a spare battery but did not fancy carrying around two extra's so, a few years back I took out the 24v system (against a shedload of negative opinions I might add) and converted a later 100 series 12v starter to fit. There was 12v starters about for other vehicles but they were expensive and I was unsure it would work, well it did and still does.

I have a thread that runs on i8MUD http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/my-lc-80-thread.365673/page-5

you can see the starter mod was done in June 2011 and apart from a minor hiccup it works fine, some time down the road the car was taken off the road for over a year and once a recon gearbox, transfer box and new clutch were fitted I connected the batteries, cranked it over and it fired and run first time!

If and when the starter packs up I will purchase the correct 12v version and bolt it in, if you are thinking about it go ahead, there is no negatives to the mod...unless of course a trip to Antarctica is planned?

regards

Dave
 
I followed Chris' route and fitted a new 12v starter motor and removed all the 24v bits and fitted a split charge system at the same time. It was only a half day for an auto-electrician, I now have a second battery which can be used for my fridge or air pump etc. Best of all I can jump start myself as my 80 is an auto transmission.
 
Unnecessary? In the UK maybe but in some climates preferred or even essential, hence the glow plugs (intake air heater on the 24valve versions) and fuel heater. I suppose the real question is why didn't they just fit the 24v starter and heaters etc for the markets that need it?
 
Could someone explain in simple terms why my 80 has two battery's? Is the wiring all 24v or 12v with the battery's in parallel or bits of both? And what does what?
I haven't managed to track down a wiring diagram yet, does anyone have a soft copy??

Cheers

I know your post was looking for an explanation as to why your 80 has two batteries and that has been answered but if you do decide to convert to a 12v starter then here is another write up....

http://www.lcoc.ie/showthread.php?1340-12-volt-starting-conversion-on-a-1997-24-valve-manual-80-series-LandCruiser&p=6465
 
Last edited:
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If your 80 doesn't start within 3/4 of a second, then 2 batteries or 10 batteries isn't going to help. I am not convinced that in -50 degrees, one freezing battery at 12v will be any different to two freezing batteries at 24volts.
 
It's a well known fact that sub zero temperatures reduce the capacity of lead-acid batteries. If the drop is, for sake of argument 10%, then 10% will have less an effect at 24v than it will at 12v, plus a starter of a given power rating will require less current at 24v than at 12v. I guess the achilles heel (if there is one) of the 80's setup is the extra trickery required for running a dual voltage system.
 
That may be - I am sure it is, but there is a second issue here and that is that on the twin set up, if one of the batteries is feeling poorly, it's my experience that getting less than 24v makes starting much harder than getting less than 12v. I truly appreciate the need for reliability but I actually feel that moving away from single battery set ups intoruduces potential UN reliability. Look at the winter pack on the Collie. As soon as one battery goes down, it screws the other battery and you need two new ones. There are hundereds of successful sub zero vehicles out there that have one battery. Trabants, Ladas, Landro.... Ok there are limits.

With the 12v conversion you actually get two batteries. If one goes down, the other isn't connected. You can then use the other battery to start yourself. You could use jump cables in parallel actually and give yourself a massive 12v crank. If things are that cold then either leave it running all night or, put the battery in your bed with you.

This is pretty hypothetical really. In most places on earth, the 80 will start first touch anyway and doesn't need two batteries. The changeover system also introduces the potential for fire in an older vehicle too and if it fails, which they can, then you're up the creek.
 
You have to ask yourself why 24v electrics are used in commercial and military vehicles where a non-starter could have more costly or even dangerous consequences. For obvious reasons a vehicle with full 24v electrics aimed at private civilian use would be a right PITA when it came to fitting accessories like sound systems etc, hence the dual voltage setup of the 80 which gives (or was at least intended to) give the best of both worlds, convenience of 12v for joe public and superior cold starting of 24v. Agreed on the added complexity aspect of the dual voltage setup but if that's the way Toyota wanted to run it then that's whats required. As far as fire risk in older vehicles, maybe. It's an extra 2 relays when all's said and done. Fault finding in a non starting situation will be easier on a straight 12v setup without the switchover system, can't really argue with that.
As with everything, everyone will have their own opinion of course so, to surmise IMO!:

Is 24v starting superior in very cold conditions.......................Yes
Does the dual voltage system of the 80 add complexity...........Yes
Does it make the vehicle less reliable....................................Not necessarily.

Regarding the fire risk I almost had a fire but it was nothing to do with the 24v cranking setup but the intake air heater relay sited underneath the offside battery which burnt itself to a crisp.
 
My 80 was recalled by Toyota to fit an improved intake heater relay. They advised me of the fire risk in the recall notice.
 
After swapping over to the 12v system is one of the batteries capable of supplying enough power for the car ? If so why didn't Toyota fit 2 smaller ones ?
 
Landcruiser was often said to be the worlds toughest civilian 4x4 and i think the 80 was built to confirm it . I imagine the 24v set up virtually guaranteed no starting issues for the first 10 years of the trucks life by which time the Landcruiser badge had cemented its reputation and nobody keeps records of reliability on vehicles over a decade old .
 
OK so if the 80 had only ever come with 1 x 12v starting option, just how many times do we think people would have said, "If only they'd fitted 24v and two batteries" We'll never know, but I am going to be my Christmas Pudding that it wouldn't be many. You see it's one of those things that you only think is necessary because it's there but if you'd never had it, it wouldn't have crossed your mind.

Like an oil pressure gauge. Got one and it's low, you worry. Never had one, you'd never think about it. I have a newish car and it has no water temp indicator. Well it probably does but only if it overheats. The owner forum is full of people worrying that they don't have something to tell that that everything is OK. Well they do. It's called not having a light on that tells them there is a problem.
 
OK so if the 80 had only ever come with 1 x 12v starting option, just how many times do we think people would have said, "If only they'd fitted 24v and two batteries" We'll never know, but I am going to be my Christmas Pudding that it wouldn't be many. You see it's one of those things that you only think is necessary because it's there but if you'd never had it, it wouldn't have crossed your mind.

Like an oil pressure gauge. Got one and it's low, you worry. Never had one, you'd never think about it. I have a newish car and it has no water temp indicator. Well it probably does but only if it overheats. The owner forum is full of people worrying that they don't have something to tell that that everything is OK. Well they do. It's called not having a light on that tells them there is a problem.

I only get one battery, works perfectly fine and don't need another. I'd only fit a 2nd battery if I did a lot of winching or had such things like fridges and hair straighteners etc.
 
The 24v versus 12v ALWAYS sets off a great debate, so I might as well throw in my 2 euros worth. Before I get into my stride we need to clarify a couple of items. First, Australia AFAIK got a 12v system, I do not think they see mega cold conditions so that is a good example of market targeting. I am also a firm believer that if you are going to travel to remote places in a private vehicle then look at the mods/systems the Australians use, they are the masters of long distance travel IMO. Secondly Europe, you can be in serious extremes of climate within a couple of days driving so -40 in Russia easily accessible from the UK in a very short time. Toyota were going to make sure the 80 started no matter where you were, just look at the cold start facilities of the 80, despite direct injection no glow plugs needed but they were fitted anyway, idle up and variable diesel timing also aids starting, and then the 24v starter, throw in a fuel heater, all in all a package that WILL start regardless of how cold it is. 24v is a better way to get power from one point to another the volts being the 'pressure' if you like, so less current draw results in the ability to use starters with a higher Kw rating, the 24v starter has 4.5 kw as opposed to the typical 3.0kw from the 12v (diesel) versions. So without doubt the starters are more powerful, thick engine oil, with low batteries and you will still swing the engine over. Since the design of the 80 (reputedly started in 1985) everything automotive has improved, but one area that has come a long way is batteries. I have two 900 amp marine batteries in mine and yet 20 years ago for the same size they would have been perhaps 600 amps? Also parasitic draw had for awhile dropped with clocks becoming digital and so forth. Now that draw is going back up with ECU's being employed in all vehicle systems, so battery manufacturers have had to respond (look at the availability of 16 volt car batteries for example). When Toyota released the 100 what did we get....a 12v starter system, (two batteries in parallel equals 12v but doubles the amperage) the new style matrix pre heat system warming the incoming air sufficiently to help the engine start along with a different gearing on the starter dog, this means the 24v system in effect no longer required and this system is an admission by Toyota that this is the case.

For ME and I mean ME, the issue is not necessarily about reliability of the system as a whole but as I like to travel and camp in relatively remote areas, I like an element of redundancy and if a battery fails on the 24v system the car will not start, I have tried it and there is a lot of clicking and clunking but it will not swing the engine. Next, the two batteries are in parallel at ALL times except when the starter is engaged so, if a battery fails or you simply leave the lights on, it will drag the good one down, you are now stuck with TWO dead batteries, for me that is a totally unacceptable situation, so I went the 12v route.

I now have two batteries in parallel at all times except, in the event that one starts to lose power for whatever reason, left the lights on, or a faulty cell for example then the split charger will disconnect them automatically so there is always one fully charged battery. When I return to the car and find a flat battery I press a button and start the engine, the split charger will engage and recharge both batteries. As I use a 'dual sense' charger the solar panel will also charge both batteries, so the only time my batteries are not being charged is at night when the engine is off. I can at any time using the remote switch inside the car choose whether I want the batteries in parallel or separated or on 'auto', this is a great facility, if I am inclined I can force the separation of the batteries and then in the morning simply look at the battery monitor, it will indicate the charge level on both batteries, any weakness in one of them will be obvious as terminal voltage tends to fall over a few hours if a battery is on the 'way out'.

Sorry that is long winded but I have a car with a system that:

Will start on one battery.
Can jump start itself.
Is capable of isolating one battery automatically in my absence.
Has a facility to monitor/test/compare the two batteries individually.

I have an on board shower, I cannot go without a fridge as the heat messes up my insulin, plus there is other stuff that uses power. I do have another battery in the rear of the car that runs these things without impacting the cars start and run functions, I can switch that in any time I like to the cars charging system, I have also fitted a 150 amp alternator, so no worries there. Also due to my paranoia of being stranded I also have a manual car that even if all the batteries were knackered, I could roll start it and still drive to civilisation! As I pointed out this suits ME and my personal circumstances, if you never get into places where a simple battery failure can be the difference between life and death, never out of mobile phone range and so forth then leave it alone as the 24v system is great IMO.

regards

Dave
 
Hoo Yah. Dave I think we must be driving the same vehicle.

My two spare batteries are Optimas with centrally positioned posts so that they will replace the passenger side battery if necessary. If that won't start the bugger then I don't know what will.

Now I actually beleive that there is another issue here, not one that everyone has experienced I know but the 80 starts SO easily that the starter and components get no real work out. I have had more starter issues on 24v that I care to recall. I've had at least 5 starter failures all due to the solenoid contacts. I think that it gets such a whack from the 24v and twin battery amps that it actually arcs and eats away the contacts. Yes yes I know there are people who have done 200 00 miles on one set, but that doesn't necessarily equate to how many times you stop and start. All of my 80s have been so fast at starting that you just flick the key. You don't churn like most cars. It's flick - rumble. So how come the contacts get burned away to nothing so quickly? I think it's spark erosion. We'll see next time I look inside my 12v solenoid
 
What's wrong with a starting handle ? If you had a flat coil spring inside a cylindrical housing on the front of the crankshaft you could wind it up for 15 seconds to store enough energy and then when enough torque had built up it would self release starting the engine.
 
You should patent that Fank and sell it to the military .
 
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